African-American Female traveling to Europe November-December

Mxsmanic wrote:

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:

... if she's never been outside the U.S., she has no way
of knowing that she won't encounter the same sort of treatment
there as she clearly has, wherever in the U.S. she lives.

What sort of treatment is that?

Despite the law and the efforts of TV series to
make the populace perceive black Americans as part of
the mainstream, prejudice still exists.

Really? Why do so many black people find it impossible to cite a single
clear instance of it when asked, then? (Yes, I've asked a lot of them
about it, and they can rarely ever come up with anything.)

It may not be as perceptible to whites ...

It's not even perceptible to blacks ... because it isn't there.

Oh, I forgo, Mxsmanic is our resident aouthority on absolutely
everything. (Never mind that he has not lived in his native country for
some years, and is an aging white hippie.)

Miguel Cruz wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Really? Why do so many black people find it impossible to cite a single
clear instance of it when asked, then? (Yes, I've asked a lot of them
about it, and they can rarely ever come up with anything.)

My coloring is somewhere between black and white. When I walk around stores
with a white friend, we're largely ignored. When I walk around with a black
friend, there's always a staffer relocating to the end of whatever aisle
we're in (so they can watch us), etc.

Maybe it's because we're so beautiful and glamorous that nobody can take
their eyes off us, but I suspect it's something else.

This doesn't happen at every store, far from it. But it definitely does
happen and it's not hard to notice. It doesn't affect my career prospects or
my opportunities to rent a property or run for office or whatever, but it's
nevertheless annoying.

And unpleasant, and insulting, and.... Why should a first time visitor
to Europe not ask about such potentially embarrassing situations?
(Judging from past posts describing his "normal" attire, I doubt whether
Mxsmanic is even aware of being stared at - he must assume everyone
receives the same attention.)


miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

In article ,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" "evgmsop-no
wrote:

she has no way of knowing that she won't
encounter the same sort of treatment there as she clearly has, wherever
in the U.S. she lives.

How quintessential, you just make things up to fit your agenda!

Another idiotic perosnal attack from "Go Fig". (Ho-hum, what else is
new?)


This is the OP first and only other post:

Agreed, that was her FIRST post, but she made several more after that -
either you haven't been following the thread, or your server is omitting
posts.

Humm... there have been 22 posts to this thread. The OP has contributed
2 post, they are both contained here... opps you cut the original, so
I'll add it back:

Hi, I'm planning to travel to Europe in late November. Specifically,
Paris and London. I was wondering if anyone else was going around that
time. And could they possibly give me some tips as to what's the best
hostels or budget hotels to go to for females as well as what things i
should do. This is my first time to Europe. Thanks V

and her ONLY other post-

Thanks, this information helps a lot. What about places to see and go.
I guess places where it's more ethnic and afrocentric friendly. I love
all kinds of music and culture. I just would like to know beforehand.
What would you recommend. Thanks,again V


AGAIN, what 'treatment' did she receive. Is it too much to explain your
post ?

jay
Sun, Oct 19, 2003


--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Mxsmanic wrote:
Miguel Cruz writes:
My coloring is somewhere between black and white. When I walk around stores
with a white friend, we're largely ignored. When I walk around with a black
friend, there's always a staffer relocating to the end of whatever aisle
we're in (so they can watch us), etc.

Unfortunately, in the United States, blacks are disproportionately
represented within the criminal population. Just as someone carrying a
gun tends to be more suspect than an unarmed person--even if he has no
intention of using the gun--someone who is black tends to be more
suspect than someone who is white. This type of prejudice is
empirically justified, even though it isn't very pretty.

That's fine, I'm just pointing out that it happens. And the statistics are
of little comfort to law-abiding blacks - many of whom have never met a
criminal - who have to put up with the effects. It's just an unfortunate
reality.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Miguel Cruz writes:

And the statistics are of little comfort to law-abiding
blacks - many of whom have never met a criminal - who
have to put up with the effects. It's just an unfortunate
reality.

What alternative is there? Since so many criminials _are_ black, anyone
who is completely color-blind in his interactions with others makes
himself more vulnerable to crime, since a larger proportion of blacks
will turn out to be bad guys. Heck, even Jesse Jackson has admitted
feeling nervous when followed by someone until he turned around and saw
that the person was white, and I rather doubt that Jackson harbors any
special hatred for blacks. It's just statistics and logic.

As long as no active barriers are erected to interaction, I don't see
why people can't be wary. Yes, you might watch that black customer a
little more closely in the diner late at night, but you must not insist
that black customers pay in advance while allowing white customers to
pay upon leaving (as one 24-hour coffee shop was convicted of doing).

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:

And unpleasant, and insulting, and.... Why should a first time visitor
to Europe not ask about such potentially embarrassing situations?

Since they cannot be avoided and they occur in circumstances that are
easy to predict, why bother to ask about them?

Judging from past posts describing his "normal" attire, I doubt whether
Mxsmanic is even aware of being stared at - he must assume everyone
receives the same attention.

No, I am constantly stared at, laughed at, and made fun of. However, I
still consider it much more important to dress for comfort and function
than to work to please the small minds of others. They may prefer to be
uncomfortable conformists; I prefer to be a comfortable non-conformist.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

le Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:07:08 GMT, dans l'article , Yankee Bob a dit ...

{ snip }

I see both categories of blacks every day: American blacks (although
they look quite white around here), and actual African blacks. The
_only_ thing the two groups have in common is fairly dark skin.
American blacks who feel kinship with Africans are indulging a vivid
imagination. I have more in common with the Japanese than they have in
common with Africans.

Yes following that line of twisted logic, I've seen 2 different types of
tiger at the zoo so that make me a tiget expert? I know what tigers think
and feel? Is that it? Should have called Sigfried and Roy a while
back.....

_Why_ do you people keep answering this halfwit ? If he's a troll, then
he's getting what he wants, whenever someone responds, and if he's just a
buffoon, then you're wasting your time.

--
Desmond Coughlan |desmond [at] zeouane [dot] org
http://www.zeouane.org/

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Yankee Bob writes:

And your credentials as an expert on these matters are???

I see both categories of blacks every day: American blacks (although
they look quite white around here), and actual African blacks. The
_only_ thing the two groups have in common is fairly dark skin.
American blacks who feel kinship with Africans are indulging a vivid
imagination. I have more in common with the Japanese than they have in
common with Africans.

Yes following that line of twisted logic, I've seen 2 different types of
tiger at the zoo so that make me a tiget expert? I know what tigers think
and feel? Is that it? Should have called Sigfried and Roy a while back.....

Yankee Bob Inc.
(At a loss for something clever to say here)



--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

"Desmond Coughlan" schreef in bericht
...
_Why_ do you people keep answering this halfwit ? If he's a troll, then
he's getting what he wants, whenever someone responds, and if he's just a
buffoon, then you're wasting your time.

Msxmanic is moderately funny because he is so predictable. If you say the
moon is green he will claim it is blue. If you say it is blue he will say it
is green. He has never been anywhere except his dungeon in Paris and still
he claims to "know about everything". He doesn't have friends, so we are
actually doing a social job also when we reply to his posts.

Sjoerd

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) "evgmsop-no wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

Vonetta writes:

Thanks, this information helps a lot. What about places to see and go.
I guess places where it's more ethnic and afrocentric friendly.

Maybe you should leave the chip on your shoulder and the paranoia at
home. You'll enjoy Europe more that way.

It's plain you've not lived in the U.S. for some time. Her attitude
reflects neither a "chip on her shoulder" nor paranoia - if she's never
been outside the U.S., she has no way of knowing that she won't
encounter the same sort of treatment there as she clearly has, wherever
in the U.S. she lives. Despite the law and the efforts of TV series to
make the populace perceive black Americans as part of the mainstream,
prejudice still exists.

Prejudice exists in a lot of places though- and I think you're deceiving
yourself if you think that Europe has cosy race relations. I know of a
concert pianist, an american, who was living in Germany for about a
decade. His wife was asian, and they both had awful experiences of
blatant racism- it was the main reason they moved to the USA. I'm sure
that happens the other way around- i.e. an American finding a better
attitude in whatever part of Europe they move to. But, I don't think one
continent is much better than another in this regard.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk