American learns how the French teach English

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

[]
I think that sort of thing happens everywhere. It surprises me that
now that we have so much labour market freedom in the EU, so few
native speakers are employed as language teachers.

The labour market freedom is one thing, the ease of moving to a
particular country another. For a native English speaker to teach, say,
in a French or Italian high school, they'd need to be fairly fluent in
the local language.

Fairly fluent, rather than wholly fluent, is sufficient. I think you
mean that.

Didn't I say that?


And then there are various layers of bureaucracy to
go through, depending on the country. If you were coming, say, from
Italy to the UK to teach italian in a _school_, it wouldn't be a simple
matter at all.

Part of the freeing-up of the labour market in the EU is reciprocal
recognition of qualifications.

There's a very long way to go on this!

I accept that there might be a
reasonable requirement to add something to, say, an Irish teaching
qualification so that one might teach in France or Italy -- some
competence in the local language, and some familiarisation with the
local system. In my view, best practice would be to keep localisation
requirements to a necessary minimum.

I remember seeing some TV programme a while back when a Scottish
chiropodist moved to Tuscany to try and start a new life with her
family. The only clients she could get were expats (not least, I
suspect, because of her language 'skills') but it also seemed very hard
for her to get any local accreditation.

Some schools and 6th form colleges get around this by
hiring temporary tutors from abroad, who work alongside the main
teachers.

Generally language assistants are young graduates developing their
skills. Typically a French assistant in Britain or Ireland assists in
the teaching of French for a year, and returns to France to teach
English. The payoff for their working in Britain or Ireland is
enhanced fluency in English, and development of language-teaching
skills. (That's the professional payoff; I am sure they also do it for
an interesting and enjoyable personal experience.)

In some of the schools I visit, I've also noticed that some f the
language tutors have gone on to do a PGCE, and ended up teaching in
those schools. Just out of interest, I checked some of the bios of the
language staff (primarily for singers) at the conservatory where I
teach, and the German, French and Italian tutors are native speakers. A
few of them moved to the UK to go to university/college and ended up
staying.

FWIW, my Italian teacher in Philadelphia was a native of Milan. My
French and German teacher was a native of Edinburgh, but I enountered
her frequently talking to native speakers in those languages, and she
certainly comfortable. (Also, one of my fellow pupils at high school was
German, and she reported that the teacher spoke it fluently.)

Of course there are people teaching languages other than their first
language, and are fluent in those languages -- but there are also some
who are not.

Not quite the same point, but in the same general area:
I met a young German here who moved to Ireland with his parents at the
age of about 16. He was very bright (subsequently earned a PhD) and
got very good results in his Leaving Certificate, the matriculation
level national test here. But he got only a "B" grade in German, which
I suspect was due to his examiner being less at home in German than he
was.

Quite possible, and just being fluent in the language won't necessarily
allow you to pass it with flying colours- you need to have some
knowledge of how to pass the exam. (You could argue there's something
wrong with that. Well, I would.)

I enounter young composers all the time who are already better than
their teachers...

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

Not quite the same point, but in the same general area:
I met a young German here who moved to Ireland with his parents at the
age of about 16. He was very bright (subsequently earned a PhD) and
got very good results in his Leaving Certificate, the matriculation
level national test here. But he got only a "B" grade in German, which
I suspect was due to his examiner being less at home in German than he
was.

Quite possible, and just being fluent in the language won't necessarily
allow you to pass it with flying colours- you need to have some
knowledge of how to pass the exam. (You could argue there's something
wrong with that. Well, I would.)

He was fairly exam-savvy, and got good results in other subjects which
he took through English. There was no significant non-langauge
component in the exam, such as set texts. I was entertained to hear
teachers try to defend the result -- which they knew in their hearts
was absurd.

I enounter young composers all the time who are already better than
their teachers...

What direction is your finger pointing?

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Martin wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:30:42 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
[]
Not quite the same point, but in the same general area:
I met a young German here who moved to Ireland with his parents at the
age of about 16. He was very bright (subsequently earned a PhD) and
got very good results in his Leaving Certificate, the matriculation
level national test here. But he got only a "B" grade in German, which
I suspect was due to his examiner being less at home in German than he
was.

Quite possible, and just being fluent in the language won't necessarily
allow you to pass it with flying colours- you need to have some
knowledge of how to pass the exam. (You could argue there's something
wrong with that. Well, I would.)

My daughter got an A level "B" in German mainly based on her knowledge of
Dutch.

She decided to take German A level less than a year before the exam I
don't think the standard is very high.

Quite possible. Then again, maybe your daughter is very quick at
learning and/or very good at exams? I knew people at high school who
were native speakers of languages, yet they didn't get As. Experience in
other languages might make a difference too. I took french for 4 years
before getting my GCSE equivalent at A, and a year after that took one
year of German and got an A. (GCSE, _not_ A level.) I didn't think the
German exam was easier than the French one, but I was older, and I think
my Norwegian helped a lot, at least initially.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

Not quite the same point, but in the same general area:
I met a young German here who moved to Ireland with his parents at the
age of about 16. He was very bright (subsequently earned a PhD) and
got very good results in his Leaving Certificate, the matriculation
level national test here. But he got only a "B" grade in German, which
I suspect was due to his examiner being less at home in German than he
was.

Quite possible, and just being fluent in the language won't necessarily
allow you to pass it with flying colours- you need to have some
knowledge of how to pass the exam. (You could argue there's something
wrong with that. Well, I would.)

He was fairly exam-savvy, and got good results in other subjects which
he took through English. There was no significant non-langauge
component in the exam, such as set texts. I was entertained to hear
teachers try to defend the result -- which they knew in their hearts
was absurd.

I had some friends not achieve A's when they took exams in their native
languages. I think they'd admit they were just lazy. It doesn't sound
like that was the case here though. In my own field, I encounter
teachers all the time who I'm honestly surprised ever even considered
becoming specialist teachers. On the whole, most are good though.

I enounter young composers all the time who are already better than
their teachers...

What direction is your finger pointing?

With my students, I politely suggest it's time for them to look for a
new teacher!

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Following up to (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) :

I enounter young composers all the time who are already better than
their teachers...

That could say two things about the teachers. Either they are crap, or they
are very good.
--
Tim C.

Tim C. wrote:

Following up to (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) :

I enounter young composers all the time who are already better than
their teachers...

That could say two things about the teachers. Either they are crap, or they
are very good.

Indeed. I'm not referring to very good teachers.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Following up to (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) :

Indeed. I'm not referring to very good teachers.

:-) I thought so.
--
Tim C.

Martin wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:46:21 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:30:42 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
[]
Not quite the same point, but in the same general area:
I met a young German here who moved to Ireland with his parents at the
age of about 16. He was very bright (subsequently earned a PhD) and
got very good results in his Leaving Certificate, the matriculation
level national test here. But he got only a "B" grade in German, which
I suspect was due to his examiner being less at home in German than he
was.

Quite possible, and just being fluent in the language won't necessarily
allow you to pass it with flying colours- you need to have some
knowledge of how to pass the exam. (You could argue there's something
wrong with that. Well, I would.)

My daughter got an A level "B" in German mainly based on her knowledge of
Dutch.

She decided to take German A level less than a year before the exam I
don't think the standard is very high.

Quite possible. Then again, maybe your daughter is very quick at
learning and/or very good at exams?

She thinks she is just average.

At learning and/or exams?

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Martin wrote:

[]
I watched two very good programs on music theory on Channel 4 one morning
about two weeks ago. Not sure if it was aimed at children or OAPs. I
learnt a lot.

Music theory? Must have been aimed at OAP's. They hardly teach it any
more in schools...

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

Martin wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:31:22 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Martin wrote:

[]
I watched two very good programs on music theory on Channel 4 one morning
about two weeks ago. Not sure if it was aimed at children or OAPs. I
learnt a lot.

Music theory? Must have been aimed at OAP's.

It was much too fast for me :-)

They hardly teach it any
more in schools...

...exactly what do they teach in schools to replace all the things that they
don't teach anymore?

Oh, lots of things- lots of which is good, but personally, I'd rather
there was more theory, and more free (or heavily subsidised)
instrumental tuition. Drums, bass and singing is fun, but if you really
want to improve the skills of a kid (and I don't just mean in music),
get them taking something like bassoon. I've seen it happen too many
times not to see the connection.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007