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French Family Values...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp
July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice. First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the United States. It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families. O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers. The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart. The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out. But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills. Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four. So which society has made the better choice? I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why Europeans work less than Americans. But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal an individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together." And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income. It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign. American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?" / |
#2
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"Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. I hope I have these details correct. One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like Harvard or MIT). There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't know anyone who went that route. Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges. |
#3
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Robert J Carpenter wrote: "Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. I hope I have these details correct. One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like Harvard or MIT). Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things instead? While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of "everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community college, and career paths not involving the academic system are looked down upon, sometimes. Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants, low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps someone can fill me in. There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't know anyone who went that route. Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges. I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree.... |
#4
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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: Another is that many French citizens retire early. I've heard, unofficially, that 40% of people over 55 are retired. |
#5
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wrote: Robert J Carpenter wrote: "Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. I hope I have these details correct. One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like Harvard or MIT). Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things instead? Yes, there is a tracking system, basically by 15 or so your "fate"is basically ordained... [I'm 51 and when I went to junior and senior high school students were tracked this way, it was quite common. At my school there were three categories (I, II, and III, I being the college track), determined primarily by tests and grades in primary school...] But just because you can't go to college does not mean the end of life. For example, Germany has good vocational/technical training programs. Something we should do more of here in the States... While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of "everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community college, and career paths not involving the academic system are looked down upon, sometimes. Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants, low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps someone can fill me in. There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't know anyone who went that route. Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges. I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree.... There are lots of 30 year - old students in Europe, many still living at home with mum and dad... And of course in some places like Italy, grown men still expect their mothers to cater for their every need, even if they are married. This is why Italian men generally make VERY lousy husbands*... -- Best Greg [*not as bad as Russian men, however...] |
#6
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In article et,
Gregory Morrow gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: wrote: Robert J Carpenter wrote: "Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. I hope I have these details correct. One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like Harvard or MIT). Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things instead? Yes, there is a tracking system, basically by 15 or so your "fate"is basically ordained... [I'm 51 and when I went to junior and senior high school students were tracked this way, it was quite common. At my school there were three categories (I, II, and III, I being the college track), determined primarily by tests and grades in primary school...] But just because you can't go to college does not mean the end of life. For example, Germany has good vocational/technical training programs. They do and if you drop out of high school early, you are required to talk an apprenticeship... however, of those I know in the former DDR area... there just aren't jobs for them. jay Fri Jul 29, 2005 Something we should do more of here in the States... While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of "everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community college, and career paths not involving the academic system are looked down upon, sometimes. Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants, low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps someone can fill me in. There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't know anyone who went that route. Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges. I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree.... There are lots of 30 year - old students in Europe, many still living at home with mum and dad... And of course in some places like Italy, grown men still expect their mothers to cater for their every need, even if they are married. This is why Italian men generally make VERY lousy husbands*... |
#7
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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp July 29, 2005 French Family Values By PAUL KRUGMAN "Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures? Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly? For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something more complex that one country? -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
#8
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DDT Filled Mormons wrote: Yet another article that assumes France is representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something more complex that one country? Does it *matter*? The whole article is a thumb sucker and a finger waving in the face about how "bad" Americans are. Krugman could have put Rwanda in there instead of France and still have the US looking bad.... |
#9
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#10
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The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a
head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice. Yes, 10% unemployment in France is giving people ample time to spend with their families. |
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