French Family Values...

This is a very interesting discussion...

I am French, but I obtained a MS degree in the US, and I worked in an US
company for several years. Now my daughter is married to an american, and
lives in the US. So, I know both countries a bit...

And I have a few comments to make about what has been said in this thread.

In the first place, it should be realized that Europe is much much more
heterogeneous than the US. Not only languages, but cultures and customs are
very different, even in the same country. Local dialects are still very much
in use (you could hardly work in Alsace, a part of France, if you don't
speak the dialect...). And people tend to spend all their live in the area
where they were born. This to say that it is nearly impossible to apply any
general statement to "Europe"...

So, I will limit my comments to a comparison between what I know of France
and what I know of the US...

- Productivity : I worked in factories, in the US and in France. The
difference in behavior is very significant : the american worker obeys
orders, without much discussion. The french worker tries to be smart. The
visitor who drives in both countries will immediately see the difference in
the behavior of the drivers : the way people drive is, in my opinion, one of
the best revelators of the psychology of the driver.

Yes, the French worker is very productive. He is inventive, and will find
ways to do his job better and more efficiently.

- GDP : I know there is to be a scale to compare productivity of nations.
Comparisons based on figures are easy to make, as figures are published. But
these comparisons should be taken with much caution, as figures don't mean
the same thing in every country. The amount of euros that will allow a
Frenchman to purchase cheese and wine to his liking will make him miserable
in the US, where he could not get the same products at any price.

- Unemployment : France has known an alternance of socialist and liberal
governments. This alternance is necessary to keep the equilibrium. But now
France has recently been governed by socialists for a long time, and they
have passed laws which are extremely detrimental to the economy. If you ask
the factory worker if he would rather work or be on holiday, the answer is
obvious... Hence the 35 working hours week... And of course the worker wants
to receive money even if he does not work : everybody has to eat, and it is
not his fault if the company he was working with had to reduce its
workforce. So, the socialist governments instituted a nice compensation
system for the unemployed. This is good, of course. But it is now too much :
many people have found that they would earn just about the same amount when
working as they are earning as unemployed... So, many people find ways to
receive the unemployment compensation, even if they don't really intend to
work... Unemployment figures can be misleading.

- Early retirement : I remember that, 40 years ago, we had ushers in
attendance at every floor of our company building. They would take visitors
to the proper offices, and they would carry the urgent mail directly to
their recipient. They were old, and this gave them a way to still be useful,
and to earn enough money to live. But the company had to pay an amount
almost equal to the salary, to retirement funds and for health care
insurance. So, the companies entered in an agreement with the government :
these people would be fired, and would receive unemployment compensation,
paid by the government... I had the benefit of such a measure : I was
"fired" at 57 (and received in the process a nice check from my company),
and I was on "unemployment" for several years (until I qualified for the
official retirement benefits), receiving a nice "salary", and not being
"obliged" to find a new job... how many such "unemployed" are there still on
the statistics ?

- French "income" : see above. It is extremely difficult to compare incomes
in two countries. Rough figures don't mean much : exchange rates are
artificial. And one has to look at the "necessary" expenses : for instance,
health care is totally free in France, and the standard is one of the best
in the world. There is a lot to be said on the question of comparing
"income".

- Education : yes, the French system is excellent - and free, for the most
part.

So, who is right ? When I worked in a manufacturing company in the US, 30
years ago, all the managers could go home at 5 in the afternoon. They had
only two weeks vacations, but they could spend every evening at home with
their family (I know, I was in a small town, and this was certainly not the
case everywhere). Now, all the managers I know in France come home at 8 or 9
p.m.... So much for the fewer work hours... The stress on managers is
reaching a critical point (and long vacations are a necessity...).

DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to
teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be
good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies
really doing that badly?

For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is
representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something
more complex that one country?


Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...???

--
Best
Greg

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:


DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to
teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be
good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies
really doing that badly?

For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is
representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something
more complex that one country?


Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't he...???

Why is it never Liechtenstein?
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

"DDT Filled Mormons" wrote
in message news
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"

Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't
he...???

Why is it never Liechtenstein?

Bah!!!

Andorra forever.

DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:50:02 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:


DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone
else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example,
I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to
teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be
good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health
care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European
economies
really doing that badly?

For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is
representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something
more complex that one country?


Tut tut now DFM, he had to choose *some* country in Europe, didn't
he...???

Why is it never Liechtenstein?


Or San Marino, or even the Duchy Of Fenwick...

--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow"

Or San Marino, or even the Duchy Of Fenwick...

Didn't Fenwick have the Bomb? In which case, have they renounced it?

DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

[]
Why is it never Liechtenstein?

Liechtenstein is very handy for European travellers. Indeed, I have a
Liechtenstein phone number, though I've never been there. Actually, I
usually have to double check on the map to remember exactly where it is.

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:43 +0100,
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
wrote:

DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

[]
Why is it never Liechtenstein?

Liechtenstein is very handy for European travellers. Indeed, I have a
Liechtenstein phone number, though I've never been there. Actually, I
usually have to double check on the map to remember exactly where it is.

I went there for work once. It felt just like Switzerland not
surprisingly.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:54:26 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:53:10 GMT, DDT Filled Mormons
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:05:43 +0100,
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
wrote:

DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

[]
Why is it never Liechtenstein?

Liechtenstein is very handy for European travellers. Indeed, I have a
Liechtenstein phone number, though I've never been there. Actually, I
usually have to double check on the map to remember exactly where it is.

I went there for work once. It felt just like Switzerland not
surprisingly.

Mixi should try it.

Mixi's becoming tedious and boring. Too many of us have figured him
out, and know how to drive his meaningless drivel into the dirt where
it belongs.

Now I just feel terribly sorry for him. There's a deeply sad spirit
inside that guy.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

more pollution, thank you

"Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net a écrit dans le
message de news: t...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be
good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies
really doing that badly?

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a
head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and
Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in
priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive
societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family
time.
And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.

First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may
be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according
to
the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in
France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the
United States.

It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United
States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their
families.

O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French
put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the
French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which
tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a
real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the
main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take
more
vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we
do,
it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that
choice,
let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France
compares with that of its American counterpart.

The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This
translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller
house,
less eating out.

But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because
French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have
to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district.
Nor
does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care,
have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into
bankruptcy
by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family
are
compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully
employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year.
In America, that figure is less than four.

So which society has made the better choice?

I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working
hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce
Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in
government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why
Europeans work less than Americans.

But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations
actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower
income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal
an
individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to
obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if
you
do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on
vacation together."

And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours
makes
Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.

It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is
"politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that
political charge seems to have the wrong sign.

American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet
many
of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you
may
say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the
family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?"

/