Babysitters in China

PeterL wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote:
I would be doing the child a disservice if I took leave of my ability to
think rationally. In the absence of evidence that there is increased risk
of child kidnapping in China vs at home, I don't see why that would be a
factor in a decision of whether or not to use a babysitter there to any
greater degree than it would at home.

Let's think about this rationally then. Let's leave China out of the
equation least people accuse me of China bashing. Let's just talk
about travel in general. Also admittedly the incident of child
kidnapping is very rare (although when it happens the emotional toll is
extremely high), so let's include acute infestions and injuries.

Travel puts stress on one's physiology, yes? The longer the travel
(e.g. to a foreign country) the higher the stress level.

Quite the opposite. Short trips can be stressful, but a long trip is far
more relaxing than staying home.

For very young children the stress is amplified because their immune
system is not well developed. So while there are babies in all countries,
traveling babies are subject to higher likelihood of acute infections and
injuries, esp. if they are exposed to infectious agents they are not used
to seeing (e.g. in a foreign country).

Infections, yes. Injuries, I don't see why.

Now let's think about reactions when a child is infected or injured or
kidnapped. At home, while these are traumatic events, you have an
immediate support system. Friends and relatives, doctors and
hospitals, police, church, etc. are all familiar to you. You can
communicate in your native language.

It seems to me what you are arguing against is not the babysitting thing,
but traveling with children in general.

This is not so in a foreign country. You most likely can't communicate
in that language. (This is so even if you speak that language. You
are unlikely to be familiar with communicating about disease or
injuries with medical professionals or the police.) You have no
support system to speak of. Thus when something like this happens
while you are traveling with very young children, the likelihood of
similar level of service to when you are at home is non-existent.

I think this is overblown. I've dealt with doctors in a great many places
around the world (both for my own situations and those of people I was
assisting), and never had any significant trouble communicating. Doctors are
highly educated, and many doctors have studied overseas. Even if the first
doctor you encounter doesn't speak a broadly-understood language like
English or French, odds are extreely high one of his/her colleagues will.

Thinking logically, would you expose your young child to a potentially
high level of infection or injury or kidnapping if you don't have to?
I wouldn't.

I don't see that the risk of injury or kidnapping is any higher than leaving
the kid at home. The risk of kidnapping is miniscule in any case.

Infection is an issue and I would want to take precautions to see that the
risks were minimized. But that doesn't mean never going anywhere.

Fortunately, as long as the kids get to spend some time around animals and
eat a little dirt in the backyard now and then, the window of heightened
concern over infection is pretty small.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan

Miguel Cruz wrote:
PeterL wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote:
I would be doing the child a disservice if I took leave of my ability to
think rationally. In the absence of evidence that there is increased risk
of child kidnapping in China vs at home, I don't see why that would be a
factor in a decision of whether or not to use a babysitter there to any
greater degree than it would at home.

Let's think about this rationally then. Let's leave China out of the
equation least people accuse me of China bashing. Let's just talk
about travel in general. Also admittedly the incident of child
kidnapping is very rare (although when it happens the emotional toll is
extremely high), so let's include acute infestions and injuries.

Travel puts stress on one's physiology, yes? The longer the travel
(e.g. to a foreign country) the higher the stress level.

Quite the opposite. Short trips can be stressful, but a long trip is far
more relaxing than staying home.

The OP was talking about a short trip, 2 weeks IIRC.


For very young children the stress is amplified because their immune
system is not well developed. So while there are babies in all countries,
traveling babies are subject to higher likelihood of acute infections and
injuries, esp. if they are exposed to infectious agents they are not used
to seeing (e.g. in a foreign country).

Infections, yes. Injuries, I don't see why.


Well, grouped together. Injuries do occur when in unfamiliar
environments.

Now let's think about reactions when a child is infected or injured or
kidnapped. At home, while these are traumatic events, you have an
immediate support system. Friends and relatives, doctors and
hospitals, police, church, etc. are all familiar to you. You can
communicate in your native language.

It seems to me what you are arguing against is not the babysitting thing,
but traveling with children in general.


Absolutely not. I love to travel with my son when he was young (not so
much now that he is in much better shape than me). I encourage people
to travel with their children, broadens the minds, no question. I
argue against needlessly exposing very young children to stress and
infections and dangers.

This is not so in a foreign country. You most likely can't communicate
in that language. (This is so even if you speak that language. You
are unlikely to be familiar with communicating about disease or
injuries with medical professionals or the police.) You have no
support system to speak of. Thus when something like this happens
while you are traveling with very young children, the likelihood of
similar level of service to when you are at home is non-existent.

I think this is overblown. I've dealt with doctors in a great many places
around the world (both for my own situations and those of people I was
assisting), and never had any significant trouble communicating. Doctors are
highly educated, and many doctors have studied overseas. Even if the first
doctor you encounter doesn't speak a broadly-understood language like
English or French, odds are extreely high one of his/her colleagues will.


In bigger cities yes. In rural areas not so much.

Thinking logically, would you expose your young child to a potentially
high level of infection or injury or kidnapping if you don't have to?
I wouldn't.

I don't see that the risk of injury or kidnapping is any higher than leaving
the kid at home. The risk of kidnapping is miniscule in any case.

Infection is an issue and I would want to take precautions to see that the
risks were minimized. But that doesn't mean never going anywhere.


Again, not arguing about travel with children, but the original issue
of getting a babysitter, who is a total unknown, in a foreign country.
I wouldn't even think about a babysitter unless he/she is someone I
already have some familiarity with. It really has nothing to do with a
foreign country. Would I hire a babysitter in NYC for half a day for
my child? Not on your life.


Fortunately, as long as the kids get to spend some time around animals and
eat a little dirt in the backyard now and then, the window of heightened
concern over infection is pretty small.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan

PeterL wrote:

Absolutely not. I love to travel with my son when he was young (not
so much now that he is in much better shape than me). I encourage
people to travel with their children, broadens the minds, no
question. I argue against needlessly exposing very young children to
stress and infections and dangers.

In bigger cities yes. In rural areas not so much.


So you wouldn't travel from NY to San Antonio or the South of Texas with a
young child ?
In the rural areas the doctor might speak Spanish...

Also, there is a high risk that people might vote Republican there.

On 24 Aug 2005 14:20:13 -0700, the renowned "PeterL"
wrote:


Again, not arguing about travel with children, but the original issue
of getting a babysitter, who is a total unknown, in a foreign country.
I wouldn't even think about a babysitter unless he/she is someone I
already have some familiarity with. It really has nothing to do with a
foreign country. Would I hire a babysitter in NYC for half a day for
my child? Not on your life.

That's a good point-- and if you've heard of a Chinese city, it
probably is approaching the size of NYC in population. Not that bad
things don't happen in small places, but it's easier for a bad person
to disappear in a large city.

I think this is something that you have to be a parent to understand-
you must constantly evaluate whether your child will be safe and will
be able to handle any given situation that you see them going into.

I might allow my 9-year old to travel unaccompanied on a long flight
involving transfers, because I know the child's personality, how they
would handle any unexpected events and how they would respond if a
stranger tried anything.

OTOH, a 16-month old is virtually helpless, and may not be able to
tell you afterward if they have been abused. A moment's carelessness
by a supervising adult could result in drowning, injury or death due
to serious burns, falling, traffic, etc. etc. Carelessness with food
hygiene could lead to illness which hits small people a lot harder
(especially dehydration due to the trots). Safety and hygiene
standards are a lot lower in developing countries. Adults adapt
quickly, but kids can't understand why doing something they do at home
(such as running joyfully out the door) is not a good idea when
there's crazy traffic outside rather than a beckoning back yard.

I don't believe in preventing small infections, bumps and bruises,
which are how kids adapt and learn, but I do believe in controlling
the risk.

[miguel wrote]

Fortunately, as long as the kids get to spend some time around animals and
eat a little dirt in the backyard now and then, the window of heightened
concern over infection is pretty small.

Parasites, respiratory and eye infections are possiblities. When I
took my kid to China I drilled into the little brain that you were not
to touch your eyes or mouth, or if you have to rub them to use the
back of your hand. For a 16-month old, the rolling prison cell
(stroller/pram) is your friend. They are kept safe, their stuff is all
there, and they can go to sleep if they need to.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Miguel Cruz" wrote in message
...
Gerrit 't Hart wrote:
Not too long ago there was an article in a newspaper here (in Australia)
about the incidence of child kidnapping in China increasing over time
because of the restrictive birth rules in that country. The article said
that because Chinese coup[les were only allowed to have one child they
were
"buying" babies from these kidnappers. Admittedly it usually concerned
male
babies but some females were traded as well.

And I'm sure that family that suddenly shows up with a white western baby
won't arouse any suspicion at all, especially not just after that family
of
tourists reported their baby stolen.

miguel
--
But Alfred's wife is Chinese! Could it be that the child may look Chinese?

Hi,

Miguel Cruz wrote:

And I'm sure that family that suddenly shows up with a white western baby
won't arouse any suspicion at all, especially not just after that family of
tourists reported their baby stolen.

Have a look at Alfred's homepage - there's a picture of his child.

Ralph

--
For contact details, please see www.ralphholz.de.

Hi Alfred,

Alfred Molon wrote:

I have no wish to sound alarmist but it is as well to know that these
stories are doing the rounds.

There are also stories that Chinese eat children.

Not wishing to go deeper into the discussion, but I do get the feeling that you
have already made up your mind and are really looking for pro arguments rather
than a balanced view of the thing.

Personally, I'd feel uneasy about leaving my child anywhere in the world where I
am not at home. This isn't saying I wouldn't do it if I can be sure that it's
left in 100% reliable and competent hands.

R

--
For contact details, please see www.ralphholz.de.

Why am I not surprised!

"PeterL" wrote in message
ups.com...
x-no-archive: yes

Dieter Aaaa wrote:
PeterL wrote:

In a foreign country ...

Can i ask you in which country you are living ?

I live in the US.

That was in Bali. The allegation was never proved and DFAT refused to
increase their warning, although there is something vague on their website
about being careful with baby sitters, which most rational people would do.
There are also many risks with baby sitters in western countries. I can
think of a few juicy murder stories in Australia where kids have died in the
care of a baby sitter.

"Gerrit 't Hart" wrote in message
...
Not too long ago there was an article in a newspaper here (in Australia)
about the incidence of child kidnapping in China increasing over time
because of the restrictive birth rules in that country. The article said
that because Chinese coup[les were only allowed to have one child they
were
"buying" babies from these kidnappers. Admittedly it usually concerned
male
babies but some females were traded as well.

Also in ouir papers there were stories of babysitting staff in 5 star
hotels
dealing indecently with little children. I can't remember whether the
hotels
were here or in SE Asia.

I have no wish to sound alarmist but it is as well to know that these
stories are doing the rounds.

Gerrit - Oz

I am astounded at the level of negativity to your question. It sounds like
you and your wife have really thought it through. If you want to do some
sightseeing for a while and find a baby sitter you are comfortable with, go
for it. Use your gut instinct and do as many checks as you can - use your
wife's family to help with this as much as they can. Most of all, enjoy
your trip and take lots of photos.

"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
...
We'll be travelling across China for three weeks in September-October
with our daughter (16 months) and I was wondering if it would be an
option to leave her with a baby sitter for half a day or so, while we
are sightseeing. If yes, how could we find a babysitter and how much
would such a service cost ?

By the way, I'd guess that the five star international hotels will have
such a service, but most of the time we'll likely be in less expensive
places.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from China, Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest, Singapore and Portugal