Knee Defender

The only tried & tested technique I have used in this situation, (especially
for people who need to be told to raise their seats) is to get up
frequently, and lean down on their seat, and the occasional kick to the back
of the seat. As others have said, they did pay for a reclining seat, but bad
manners tend to reflect on themselves if you know what I mean....


wrote in message
...
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front
of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it
was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the
back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly
that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these
two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight
would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.
The above dilemma is a common complaint on the internet and is not limited
to any particular airline. A First Class ticket for this flight was
$16,000
per person, Business Class $8,000 pp, Economy $1,500 pp. Clearly I am
financially forced to fly Economy, as are most. Is the airline industry
listening to all of the obvious complaints about seat spacing ? Do they
care
?

Somewhat sound logic, but falls apart quite quickly, I think.

You have already posted in this thread that you fly business "several" (is
it, perhaps - all?) times. Then, how would you know? Maybe also, or either -
you are blessed with a shorter stature than the OP'er - it's not like
obesity, they didn't choose to be 6'+. And if these people are forced to pay
up to 4x more for a ticket in order to receive an commonly acceptable &
decent level of comfort, then something is wrong.

I've travelled zillions of miles, all classes & lots of airlines for 25
years. I find rude, and inconsiderate behaviour more every day. The airlines
don't seem to make it very hard for people in general to share these dubious
character traits.

Walk a mile in a taller persons shoes, eh???



"Tchiowa" wrote in message
oups.com...

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
You have now restarted the knee wars. I am sure it was unintended but
let me provide a summary. Some folks will claim that since the seats
are capable of reclining you are required to have a quick surgery to
remove your knees

Or simply instead of sitting up straight and rigid like you're afraid
that the FA is a school marm you can relax and put you feet under the
seat in front of you. Knee problem goes away.

and permit full recline for the snot in front.

These kinds of arguments are so easy to win because the proponents of
the "I have a right to control all the seats around me" philosophy
always seem to take a juvenile attitude or believe that everyone else
on the plane is less than human. As proven by your reference to the
other passengers as "snot".

If you want to have some fun with the folks who claim that because the
seat is capable of reclining there is a right to recline it simply place
your feet on the top of the seat and extend them. You can then point
out that the seat is designed to fold and you clearly have a right to
have it folded.

Further proof of your attitude. If the guy in front of you wants to
sleep but you don't want him to sleep, assault him.

Now for some adult analysis of what you just said. If *YOU* want to
fold *YOUR* seat up, go ahead. If the guy in front of you wants to fold
*HIS* seat up, he can. But *YOU* can't fold *HIS* seat up nor can you
tell him that *YOU* can decide whether or not *HE* reclines *HIS* seat.

Do you understand the difference?

Airline seats are a commodity these days and are bought at the cheapest
rate. Airlines have tried removing seats to increase comfort and found
it isn't competitive so the seats went back in.. It is obvious that the
flying public cares less about legroom as long as they get a CHEAP
SEAT! If I pay for a commodity I expect to get full use of said
commodity. If you don't like the legroom on the airline of your choice,
drive or take the damn bus.

glenn P wrote:
Somewhat sound logic, but falls apart quite quickly, I think.

You have already posted in this thread that you fly business "several" (is
it, perhaps - all?) times.

Selective reading. I posted in the thread exactly once about flying
business class and that was in response to the OP commenting on the
price of business class fares.

Then, how would you know?

All of my international flights are Business or First. But all of my
domestic US flights are Economy. Last time I flew Economy was 3 weeks
ago on Continental. *That's* how I know.

Maybe also, or either -
you are blessed with a shorter stature than the OP'er - it's not like
obesity, they didn't choose to be 6'+.

I'm 6' even.

And if these people are forced to pay
up to 4x more for a ticket in order to receive an commonly acceptable &
decent level of comfort, then something is wrong.

I've travelled zillions of miles, all classes & lots of airlines for 25
years. I find rude, and inconsiderate behaviour more every day. The airlines
don't seem to make it very hard for people in general to share these dubious
character traits.

Walk a mile in a taller persons shoes, eh???

If you have a problem with the airline seats, take it up with the
airline. Don't punish the guy in front of you because he wants to
sleep.

The whole concept of "knee pain" is a phony argument. The fact is that
in virtually any economy seat if you're under around 7' you can simply
stretch out your legs and put your feet under the seat in front of you.
When you do so then a recline will have zero effect on your knees. If
your knees don't fit in the first place, that's an airline problem and
you should discuss with them.

The fact is that some people don't feel like reclining and get offended
that the guy in front of them's head get uncomfortably close. Or they
want to use their laptop or something and put it on their tray table
and the recline interferes with that. But those complaints sound petty
so they give the old "You're hurting my knees, I'm in pain" line which
is phony. I've flown 2 1/2 million miles so I *do* know what I'm
talking about. Seen it a hundred times.

And, for those people who are "unfortunate" enough to be so tall that
they do get cramped and experience pain because of the seats: Yes, it's
not fair that they should have to pay more money for a better seat just
because they are too tall. But life isn't fair. Don't punish the people
around you because of your physical differences.

I didn't mean to refute you, for your post, only to offer a balanced opinion
to the argument. Of course you fly coach, like all of us. I was merely
bringing up a side that has not been talked about too much here.

Talking about the problem with others is a great way of mitigating the anger
that can come about from a bad experience. Emailing the airline while angry
is about as useful as talking to the cab driver on your way home. This is
one of the real benefits of a NG like this.



"Tchiowa" wrote in message
oups.com...

glenn P wrote:
Somewhat sound logic, but falls apart quite quickly, I think.

You have already posted in this thread that you fly business "several"
(is
it, perhaps - all?) times.

Selective reading. I posted in the thread exactly once about flying
business class and that was in response to the OP commenting on the
price of business class fares.

Then, how would you know?

All of my international flights are Business or First. But all of my
domestic US flights are Economy. Last time I flew Economy was 3 weeks
ago on Continental. *That's* how I know.

Maybe also, or either -
you are blessed with a shorter stature than the OP'er - it's not like
obesity, they didn't choose to be 6'+.

I'm 6' even.

And if these people are forced to pay
up to 4x more for a ticket in order to receive an commonly acceptable &
decent level of comfort, then something is wrong.

I've travelled zillions of miles, all classes & lots of airlines for 25
years. I find rude, and inconsiderate behaviour more every day. The
airlines
don't seem to make it very hard for people in general to share these
dubious
character traits.

Walk a mile in a taller persons shoes, eh???

If you have a problem with the airline seats, take it up with the
airline. Don't punish the guy in front of you because he wants to
sleep.

The whole concept of "knee pain" is a phony argument. The fact is that
in virtually any economy seat if you're under around 7' you can simply
stretch out your legs and put your feet under the seat in front of you.
When you do so then a recline will have zero effect on your knees. If
your knees don't fit in the first place, that's an airline problem and
you should discuss with them.

The fact is that some people don't feel like reclining and get offended
that the guy in front of them's head get uncomfortably close. Or they
want to use their laptop or something and put it on their tray table
and the recline interferes with that. But those complaints sound petty
so they give the old "You're hurting my knees, I'm in pain" line which
is phony. I've flown 2 1/2 million miles so I *do* know what I'm
talking about. Seen it a hundred times.

And, for those people who are "unfortunate" enough to be so tall that
they do get cramped and experience pain because of the seats: Yes, it's
not fair that they should have to pay more money for a better seat just
because they are too tall. But life isn't fair. Don't punish the people
around you because of your physical differences.

wrote:
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome.
snip

FWIW, my husband is your exact height and weight and has this problem
on every flight. Not much you can do but suck it up and deal.
-L.

In message .com "-L."
wrote:


wrote:
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome.
snip

FWIW, my husband is your exact height and weight and has this problem
on every flight. Not much you can do but suck it up and deal.

I'm taller and I weigh more -- No sucking or dealing required, just move
your legs to a more comfortable position.

--
If stupidity persists, consult your psychiatrist.

glenn P wrote:
The only tried & tested technique I have used in this situation, (especially
for people who need to be told to raise their seats) is to get up
frequently, and lean down on their seat, and the occasional kick to the back
of the seat. As others have said, they did pay for a reclining seat, but bad
manners tend to reflect on themselves if you know what I mean....

Let me see if I have this straight. Your remedy for someone who wants
to sleep but you think is rude is to atke deliberate and malicious
actions to get even.

My son used to think that way. Until he was about 5. He grew up. Your
turn.

On 23 Nov 2005 01:00:27 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Let me see if I have this straight. Your remedy for someone who wants
to sleep but you think is rude is to atke deliberate and malicious
actions to get even.

My son used to think that way. Until he was about 5. He grew up. Your
turn.

But of course it's OK to smash the seat down into someone's knees and
not allow them to move according to you.

In message Brian
wrote:

On 23 Nov 2005 01:00:27 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


Let me see if I have this straight. Your remedy for someone who wants
to sleep but you think is rude is to atke deliberate and malicious
actions to get even.

My son used to think that way. Until he was about 5. He grew up. Your
turn.

But of course it's OK to smash the seat down into someone's knees and
not allow them to move according to you.

I'm a little over 300 pounds, 6'3, and I have never had my knees
smashed, nor have I had any troubles getting in or out of my seat even
with the person in front of me in full recline.

What exactly is the problem here?

--
If you cannot convince them, confuse them.