Knee Defender

On 4 Dec 2005 22:38:13 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


You and others keep saying that it is your right to prevent the guy in
front of you from reclining even if it causes pain or injury to him.
Where is that written?

It's common sense. If you park your car in a parking lot and someone
parks next to you within their spot, do you have the right to slam
your door into the other vehicle? After all, your door is made to open
wide.

I recline in part because it's better for my back. If I sit up like a
rigid 50s school girl with a book on her head for 6 hours my back will
be killing me.

What do you do in a restaurant, auditorium, etc. where seats don't
recline?

So, again, (and again, and again, and again, and again,
and again, and again, and again, and again) why is it that it's rude
for me to recline for my comfort but not rude for you to block my
recline for your comfort?

You claim that the space in back of your seat which is occupied by my
body is supposed to be your "right." I disagree. And where else would
the recline button go. There's not a problem reclining is there's room
behind you.

To me that dilemma is resolved by the simple fact that everyone has
paid for a seat that allows a recline, the recline is part of what they
paid for, they get to do it. They have also paid for a seat that they
know is behind another seat that allows a recline. If you don't like
the guy in front of you reclining, then pay for a seat that doesn't
have a reclining seat that close in front of you (bulkhead, behind the
exit row, business class, etc.).

I paid for a seat that allows a little room for my legs. That's mine.
Many airlines are very selective in allotting bulkhead or exit seats.

On 3 Dec 2005 22:50:32 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:


The true
issue is about the discomfort some people feel by having the person in
front of them simply too close. You want to work on a laptop on your
tray table. You don't want his head too close to yours.

It's interesting how you claim to know what the motivations of others
are. I can just as easily say that you are a sadist and enjoy causing
pain to others.
I don't mind someone reclining if I am on a plane which allows me to
place my legs under the seat in front. Unfortunately many seats don't
allow this.

What you don't have the right to do is to prevent other people around
you from benefitting from the seat and space that they paid for.


I am perfectly happy letting you enjoy the space you paid for. This
does not include the area occupied by my person.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:18:31 +0000, DaveM
wrote:

On 21 Nov 2005 01:15:37 -0800, "Tchiowa" wrote:

The whole concept of "knee pain" is a phony argument. The fact is that
in virtually any economy seat if you're under around 7' you can simply
stretch out your legs and put your feet under the seat in front of you.
When you do so then a recline will have zero effect on your knees

Huh? I don't know about your legs but mine bend at the knees, not in the
mid-thigh. And it makes virtually no difference whether they're bent at 90
or 120 degrees.

DaveM


In many cases, trying to place one's feet under the seat forward
simply moves the pressure point from the knee being whack to the
entire lower leg getting whacked.

If the rows are far enough apart, one can usually get one's feet under
the seat forward, providing there isn't luggage there since the
overheads are stuffed full of automatic transmissions, small particle
accelerators and whatever-the-hell else people are trying to cram up
there.

Which brings me to my second suggestion: If you can't bench press
your luggage into the bin yourself, check the damn stuff! If your
carry-on wieghs miore than you do, it's not a carry-on any more.

This is the one negative I can think of for wheeled luggage, it lets
people schlep along with a load that they can't possibly hoist over
their head and still call it a "carry-on".

Jim P.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:55:09 GMT, Windcat
wrote:


I'm a little over 300 pounds, 6'3, and I have never had my knees
smashed, nor have I had any troubles getting in or out of my seat even
with the person in front of me in full recline.

In coach. I have a flight booked in 6 days, do I need to take a
picture?


Yes. We'd like to see it.
That 300 lbs. must all be in your head.


That was unnecesarily rude. The proper question is what is his leg
length? He could have a 29" inseam...short legs, long body vs. long
legs, short body. We aren't all built the same, also somepeople
simply have more tolerance for cramped quarters.

Jim P.

On 24 Nov 2005 16:19:22 -0800, "sms-dca"
wrote:


wrote:
My wife and I flew Qantas on our Honeymoon trip to Australia in October
2005. The 14 1/2 hour flight from LA to Sydney is long and tiresome. The
WORST part about the entire flight was the two inconsiderate men in front of
us who insisted that they recline their seats fully during the entire
flight. The man in front of me kept banging his seat back even though it was
already up against my knees. I guess he thought that my femur length would
shorten eventually. He got out of his seat several times to examine the back
of his seat to see why it would not fully recline. He could see clearly that
my knees were up against his seat. The flight attendant had to ask these two
men to raise their seats so that we could eat our meals/snacks. I am not a
large person (6' 1", 220 lbs.) and I do not recline my seat as a matter of
courtesy. I have to wonder if using the "Knee Defender" on that flight would
have resulted in an altercation, thus adding more disappointment to an
already uncomfortable situation.

You can make your own version of the knee defender with a small block
of wood cut with a slot. The flight attendants are generally too busy
to bother figuring out why a particular seat doesn't work.

The airlines should not have reclining seats with the present pitch
between seats. Too many inconsiderate jerks that never look back before
reclining.


Slightly off tpoic but I used to commute on a busline that had some
"commuter buses" they used from Orange County to Los Angeles (about a
45 minute ride) and they had standard bus seat pitch but fully
reclining seats! It was a pathetic comedy as if you tried to recline
even a smidge you were cracking the shins of almost anyone bigger than
an Ewok in the seat behind you.

I had no clue hiow anyone could have approved a dwesign like that
until one day I was trying to talk tot heir customer service people
about a long string of bad design decisions they made and I happened
to ask: "By any chance is the person who approves your bus interior
designs unusually short?" There was an odd pause and he replied "Yes,
she is quite small, how did you know?" I answered that only someone
very petite or tiny could have made some of the decisions for seating.
(The same bus with the reclines had, in the first row, less than 8
inches from the front of the seat to the bulkhead in front of
it..anyone larger than a 6 year old could hardly even get into the
seats let alone relax.)

I suspect this woman is now designing cabin layouts for the airlines.
:0


Jim P.

On 1 Dec 2005 13:11:53 -0800, wrote:

Do they care ?

It's more that the passengers don't. If you were offering
transatlantic flights for $200 more per ticket, but offered more
legroom you'd quickly go out of business - People will flock to the
cheaper flight. It's been shown time and time again that people will
complain about lack of legroom, meals and movies, but won't pay more
for these services when they're offered. The failure of American
Airlines's "More Room in Coach" program (or whatever it was called) is
only the most recent example of this. The best solution seems to be
what United Airlines and others are doing - Offering a "premium"
economy offering which people can purchase if they so choose.


The problem is, they charge as much as twice the fare for that few
extra inches on United since it is reserved for full fare flyers,
aalthough I do see now youc an purchase a yearly "guarentee" for that
area..unfortunately I only fly United as my next to the last choice
(Southwest and America West duke it out for last place.)

I cheerfully flew American every chance I got until they slowly
stopped flying to the places I go to the most or replaced their
comfortable MD-80's jets with 50 seat toy planes on some routes.

Fortunately the only time I usually have to fly United i on government
business and they will allot an extra-room seat on a government fare
if one is available.

Jim P.

On 3 Dec 2005 20:29:42 -0800, "Patrick Danville"
wrote:

There is a fundamental disconnect of reasoning here. One side speaks
continually of "rights" and "paid for", but politeness has absolutely
nothing to do with either. Pushing your seatback into the knees of a
fellow passenger is rude per se.

The elevator analogy is valid. Of course you have the right to fart.
And of course fellow passengers could have paid more (taken the stairs)
to avoid your potential action. Farting in an elevator is still rude,
just like pushing your seat into somebody's knees is rude. It has
nothing to do with rights or money.

I take a pragmatic and polite approach. I recline my seat unless there
is a tall person behind me; in which case I don't. Simple.


It boils down to an old cliche: "Jusrt because you *can* do something
does not necesarily mean you *should* do something.

Nothing says you can't lie down and nap on long elevator rides but the
polite person tries to allow others some space also, the really polite
person assumes others are human and have the same rights as one self.

Jim P.

wrote in message
...
On 1 Dec 2005 13:11:53 -0800, wrote:

Do they care ?

It's more that the passengers don't. If you were offering
transatlantic flights for $200 more per ticket, but offered more
legroom you'd quickly go out of business - People will flock to the
cheaper flight. It's been shown time and time again that people will
complain about lack of legroom, meals and movies, but won't pay more
for these services when they're offered. The failure of American
Airlines's "More Room in Coach" program (or whatever it was called) is
only the most recent example of this. The best solution seems to be
what United Airlines and others are doing - Offering a "premium"
economy offering which people can purchase if they so choose.


The problem is, they charge as much as twice the fare for that few
extra inches on United since it is reserved for full fare flyers,
aalthough I do see now youc an purchase a yearly "guarentee" for that
area..unfortunately I only fly United as my next to the last choice
(Southwest and America West duke it out for last place.)

Or you can simply have elite status on UA, and book E+ for no extra cost.
You can also pay a little extra, if I recall correctly, to book E+ for a
given flight.