Breaking News Africa

As ecovillages get built in South Africa and Senegal, count on the
cities in both countries going car-free in the near future.

On 19 Apr 2004 19:11:06 -0700, (Joey Jolley)
wrote:

As ecovillages get built in South Africa and Senegal, count on the
cities in both countries going car-free in the near future.

Not in my lifetime.

Marc - Johannesburg

Check out Ivory Park on the outskirts of Johannesburg and travel to Senegal.
"Marc Lurie" wrote in message
...
On 19 Apr 2004 19:11:06 -0700, (Joey Jolley)
wrote:

As ecovillages get built in South Africa and Senegal, count on the
cities in both countries going car-free in the near future.

Not in my lifetime.

Marc - Johannesburg

Ivory Park is an interesting experiment, and I hope it all works out,
but to think that an ecovillage in Ivory Park could lead to a car-free
Johannesburg or Pretoria is either insanity or the ulitimate in
wishfull thinking and idealism.

The majority of cars owned in the Greater Johannesburg Metropole
(excluding taxis) are owned by white (and increasingly, black) middle
and upper income earners. These people don't live in ecovillages, and
probably don't want to. Many live in areas somewhat remote from their
place of work, and they will not utilise the available public
transport system for various reasons. Looking at my small company for
example, I live about 5km from my office, my two partners live around
25 and 35km away respectively. There is no way that any of us would
even remotely consider the possibility of using public transport. The
result: 3 cars in the city for 3 people.

My girlfriend lives with me, and works about half a km away from where
I work. She uses her own car to work, as do her two partners. The
result: 3 more cars in the city for 3 more people.

Most of the companies I deal with are 15 to 20km away from my office.
We deliver goods all over the Gauteng area. How should we do this - on
a bicycle?

I live in the North East of Johannesburg. There are no amenities in
the vicinity. The nearest restaurant is 3km away, the nearest mall is
10km away, my golf club is 10km away, and the nearest reasonable
nightlife is 15km away. I cannot see, in the foreseeable future at
least, a time where I would be comfortable to go out at night relying
on public transport. I therefore will, and MUST, use my car after
hours as well as during the day.

Car-free cities are like dolphin friendly tuna - they sound good, but
they really don't exist.

By the way, I have visited, and worked in Senegal. You may be able to
create a few small car-free communities there, but to talk about a
car-free Dakar is ludicrous idealism.

Just my 2c worth...

Marc - Johannesburg

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 01:18:22 -0600, "Steve Austin"
wrote:

Check out Ivory Park on the outskirts of Johannesburg and travel to Senegal.
"Marc Lurie" wrote in message
.. .
On 19 Apr 2004 19:11:06 -0700, (Joey Jolley)
wrote:

As ecovillages get built in South Africa and Senegal, count on the
cities in both countries going car-free in the near future.

Not in my lifetime.

Marc - Johannesburg

Marc Lurie wrote:

probably don't want to. Many live in areas somewhat remote from their
place of work, and they will not utilise the available public
transport system for various reasons. Looking at my small company for
example, I live about 5km from my office, my two partners live around
25 and 35km away respectively. There is no way that any of us would
even remotely consider the possibility of using public transport.

Why on earth not?
What is wrong with public transportation? And 5km away? I would walk
that distance to get work, wouldn't take you more than 20 minutes at max,
probably a lot less. And then there's bikes, and yes, you can deliver things
with a bicycle, lot's of delivery services use them for that. You can get
a cart-thingy to hook up to your bike, and it can transport reasonably
large cargo. And even if you use a car to deliver things, it would help
dramatically if everyone stopped relying on their cars so much for
personal transportation.
Remember, in many countries, it was not usual for the average Joe to own
a car 50 years ago. They still had thriving business, involving
transportation
at the time, and people lived far away from the workplace then also.
And now the car has suddenly become "essential", why I wonder?
But, further still, what has any of this go to do with travel in Africa?
(And is there no-one with an answer to my train question?)

- Martin

Marc Lurie wrote:

On 19 Apr 2004 19:11:06 -0700, (Joey Jolley)
wrote:

As ecovillages get built in South Africa and Senegal, count on the
cities in both countries going car-free in the near future.

Not in my lifetime.

Not in mine either.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

"Natteravn" wrote in message
...
Marc Lurie wrote:

probably don't want to. Many live in areas somewhat remote from their
place of work, and they will not utilise the available public
transport system for various reasons. Looking at my small company for
example, I live about 5km from my office, my two partners live around
25 and 35km away respectively. There is no way that any of us would
even remotely consider the possibility of using public transport.

Why on earth not?

I find it very difficult to imagine a white or black business man carrying a
briefcase waiting to get packed into one of those mini vans that are used so
much for transportation in South Africa. How about throwing your briefcase
up on the roof of one of those inter-city buses in Zimbabwe?

It would be nice to see the day come, but there will have to be many
cultural changes before business people can safely use mass transit in much
of Africa.

Scott

I'll deal with the issues that yu have raised, one by one...

1) Why would none of my work partners (or my girlfriend) consider the
use of public transport? Well, lets see... I could take a mini bus
taxi from home to work. It's actually 5km along only one, well
travelled route, and should be very convenient. The reasons I don't
use a mini bus taxi include:
a) They are extremely dangerous. The drivers are maniacs, they speed,
the vehicles are often unroadworthy. It is not at all uncommon for a
mini bus to lose a wheel in peak hour traffic, at 90km per hour.
b) They are often dirty inside, and I don't want to arrive at work
covered in dust or old axle grease. I like to be as presentable as
possible at work, not covered in dust and sweat.
c) If I have to go out to see a client, I will need my car at work in
any case.

2) Why don't I walk to work?
a) See answer "1b" and "1c"above. As a matter of fact, on some
Saturdays I do sometimes walk to work.

3) Why don't we use a delivery bicycle instead of a car?
a) We have one staff member doing deliveries. He has a vehicle. Should
we get him a bicycle as well?
b) We deliver all over Gauteng. Do you have any idea how long it would
take to cycle from Johannesburg to Pretoria?
c) How do you deliver a 6m aluminium pole on a bicycle?

4) "it would help dramatically if everyone stopped relying on their
cars so much for personal transportation."
a) I can't fault your sentiment, but for the practical reasons (in the
context specifically of Johannesburg, and in response to the ludicrous
assertion that this city will soon be car-free) it's just not going to
happen.

5) "Remember, in many countries, it was not usual for the average Joe
to own a car 50 years ago"
a) You are quite correct. South Africa however does not easily fit
into your hypothesis. The average Joe (a real average of the
poulation) certainly didn't own a car, and still doesn't.
b) The average person involved in business however, was white,
privilaged, wealthy, and had a car. Most South African cities
developed in a kind of sprawl, spreading over enormous areas with
suburban areas full of 1 acre plots. The high-density city areas that
many Europeans and Americans are used to are almost non-existant. Cars
became a way of life amongst the ruling class. Not only that, but
South Africans as a whole developed an enormous culture of car
worship. A car symbolises not only your social standing, it's an
expression of your personality, your freedom, your very identity.

Today, for most middle and upper income earners, their car represents
an investment of around 50% to 75% of the value of their house. In
British terms, this would equate to the owner of a GBP100,000 house
driving a car worth between GBP50,000 to GBP75,000.
For many lower income earners who have cars, the car's value often
EXCEEDS their property value by several times.

6) What does this have to do with travel in Africa?
a) I think that this thread is very relevant to this topic. Travel is
not just "been there, done that, got the T shirt". Travel is about
expanding your understanding of people and places. It's about shifting
paradigms. It's about learning. Understanding why South African cities
will never be car-free is one way to try to begin to understand
cultures and societies other than your own.

Car-free cities are idealistic notions fostered by dreamers who live
in wealthy countries where they can afford to be eccentric or
bohemian. The trouble is that they think that their indulgent
fantasies can be simply transferred to other countries and societies
without the proper understanding of the real issues facing people in
those countries.

The question begs asking: Why would we want to see car-free cities in
South Africa and Senegal in the first place? What real benefits would
there be to those countries in particular, and the world in general?

Marc - Johannesburg.)






On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:21:29 +0200, "Natteravn"
wrote:

Marc Lurie wrote:

probably don't want to. Many live in areas somewhat remote from their
place of work, and they will not utilise the available public
transport system for various reasons. Looking at my small company for
example, I live about 5km from my office, my two partners live around
25 and 35km away respectively. There is no way that any of us would
even remotely consider the possibility of using public transport.

Why on earth not?
What is wrong with public transportation? And 5km away? I would walk
that distance to get work, wouldn't take you more than 20 minutes at max,
probably a lot less. And then there's bikes, and yes, you can deliver things
with a bicycle, lot's of delivery services use them for that. You can get
a cart-thingy to hook up to your bike, and it can transport reasonably
large cargo. And even if you use a car to deliver things, it would help
dramatically if everyone stopped relying on their cars so much for
personal transportation.
Remember, in many countries, it was not usual for the average Joe to own
a car 50 years ago. They still had thriving business, involving
transportation
at the time, and people lived far away from the workplace then also.
And now the car has suddenly become "essential", why I wonder?
But, further still, what has any of this go to do with travel in Africa?
(And is there no-one with an answer to my train question?)

- Martin

These are clearly posts from people who have never lived here and have no
clue. Not on my life would I go near the public transport in Johannesburg.
If I was really desperate Iwould catch a council bus, but would steer very
clear of trains and local taxis.

Rodger
(Also in Jo'burg)

"Marc Lurie" wrote in message
...
I'll deal with the issues that yu have raised, one by one...

1) Why would none of my work partners (or my girlfriend) consider the
use of public transport? Well, lets see... I could take a mini bus
taxi from home to work. It's actually 5km along only one, well
travelled route, and should be very convenient. The reasons I don't
use a mini bus taxi include:
a) They are extremely dangerous. The drivers are maniacs, they speed,
the vehicles are often unroadworthy. It is not at all uncommon for a
mini bus to lose a wheel in peak hour traffic, at 90km per hour.
b) They are often dirty inside, and I don't want to arrive at work
covered in dust or old axle grease. I like to be as presentable as
possible at work, not covered in dust and sweat.
c) If I have to go out to see a client, I will need my car at work in
any case.

2) Why don't I walk to work?
a) See answer "1b" and "1c"above. As a matter of fact, on some
Saturdays I do sometimes walk to work.

3) Why don't we use a delivery bicycle instead of a car?
a) We have one staff member doing deliveries. He has a vehicle. Should
we get him a bicycle as well?
b) We deliver all over Gauteng. Do you have any idea how long it would
take to cycle from Johannesburg to Pretoria?
c) How do you deliver a 6m aluminium pole on a bicycle?

4) "it would help dramatically if everyone stopped relying on their
cars so much for personal transportation."
a) I can't fault your sentiment, but for the practical reasons (in the
context specifically of Johannesburg, and in response to the ludicrous
assertion that this city will soon be car-free) it's just not going to
happen.

5) "Remember, in many countries, it was not usual for the average Joe
to own a car 50 years ago"
a) You are quite correct. South Africa however does not easily fit
into your hypothesis. The average Joe (a real average of the
poulation) certainly didn't own a car, and still doesn't.
b) The average person involved in business however, was white,
privilaged, wealthy, and had a car. Most South African cities
developed in a kind of sprawl, spreading over enormous areas with
suburban areas full of 1 acre plots. The high-density city areas that
many Europeans and Americans are used to are almost non-existant. Cars
became a way of life amongst the ruling class. Not only that, but
South Africans as a whole developed an enormous culture of car
worship. A car symbolises not only your social standing, it's an
expression of your personality, your freedom, your very identity.

Today, for most middle and upper income earners, their car represents
an investment of around 50% to 75% of the value of their house. In
British terms, this would equate to the owner of a GBP100,000 house
driving a car worth between GBP50,000 to GBP75,000.
For many lower income earners who have cars, the car's value often
EXCEEDS their property value by several times.

6) What does this have to do with travel in Africa?
a) I think that this thread is very relevant to this topic. Travel is
not just "been there, done that, got the T shirt". Travel is about
expanding your understanding of people and places. It's about shifting
paradigms. It's about learning. Understanding why South African cities
will never be car-free is one way to try to begin to understand
cultures and societies other than your own.

Car-free cities are idealistic notions fostered by dreamers who live
in wealthy countries where they can afford to be eccentric or
bohemian. The trouble is that they think that their indulgent
fantasies can be simply transferred to other countries and societies
without the proper understanding of the real issues facing people in
those countries.

The question begs asking: Why would we want to see car-free cities in
South Africa and Senegal in the first place? What real benefits would
there be to those countries in particular, and the world in general?

Marc - Johannesburg.)






On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:21:29 +0200, "Natteravn"
wrote:

Marc Lurie wrote:

probably don't want to. Many live in areas somewhat remote from their
place of work, and they will not utilise the available public
transport system for various reasons. Looking at my small company for
example, I live about 5km from my office, my two partners live around
25 and 35km away respectively. There is no way that any of us would
even remotely consider the possibility of using public transport.

Why on earth not?
What is wrong with public transportation? And 5km away? I would walk
that distance to get work, wouldn't take you more than 20 minutes at max,
probably a lot less. And then there's bikes, and yes, you can deliver
things
with a bicycle, lot's of delivery services use them for that. You can get
a cart-thingy to hook up to your bike, and it can transport reasonably
large cargo. And even if you use a car to deliver things, it would help
dramatically if everyone stopped relying on their cars so much for
personal transportation.
Remember, in many countries, it was not usual for the average Joe to own
a car 50 years ago. They still had thriving business, involving
transportation
at the time, and people lived far away from the workplace then also.
And now the car has suddenly become "essential", why I wonder?
But, further still, what has any of this go to do with travel in Africa?
(And is there no-one with an answer to my train question?)

- Martin