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Bilingual in Europe versus USA



 
 
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  #41  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:09 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
spamfree
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Posts: 92
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

He's not whining about bilingualism, he's whining about signs
that literally say "Bilingual". They seem to confuse him.


I never wrote I was confused, genius. I wrote that politically correct
types consider people who question the definition as racist.

No, he's complaining that bilingual in the US always means
English/Spanish while in Europe the two languages have to be
specified. In fact, neither statement is true, as many others have
pointed out.


In fact, it is true in the USA. In Canada, bilingual generally means
English & French. But in most parts of Europe the term bilingual
is meaningless. What would bilingual mean in the UK, France,
Norway, Iceland, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Sweden, Denmark,
or Poland? Posters here have come up with a few relevant, but limited
examples. The Tyrol region is valid, but that is a small portion of the
combined area of Austria and Italy. In Switzerland there are four
languages, albeit only three major ones, so bilingual is too vague to be
of any use. In the Balkans there are many languages to consider.

Name one area in the USA where bilingual means anything other than
English & Spanish. The various Chinatowns might be the only
exception, but I don't remember that being considered officially bilingual.


  #42  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:20 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:09:31 -0600, "spamfree"
wrote:

He's not whining about bilingualism, he's whining about signs
that literally say "Bilingual". They seem to confuse him.


I never wrote I was confused, genius.


You didn't have to.

I wrote that politically correct
types consider people who question the definition as racist.


If you are standing in a taco shop in South Tucson and you see a
sign "bilingual help wanted" and you ask which two languages you
either have to be very stupid or downright malicious. But I
seriously question whether anyone would consider it racist.
Please cite some examples of this sort of racist accusation that
you have witnesses.

No, he's complaining that bilingual in the US always means
English/Spanish while in Europe the two languages have to be
specified. In fact, neither statement is true, as many others have
pointed out.


In fact, it is true in the USA. In Canada, bilingual generally means
English & French. But in most parts of Europe the term bilingual
is meaningless.


So where, exactly, have you seen these signs saying "bilingual"
in Europe?

What would bilingual mean in the UK, France,
Norway, Iceland, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Sweden, Denmark,
or Poland? Posters here have come up with a few relevant, but limited
examples. The Tyrol region is valid, but that is a small portion of the
combined area of Austria and Italy. In Switzerland there are four
languages, albeit only three major ones, so bilingual is too vague to be
of any use. In the Balkans there are many languages to consider.

Name one area in the USA where bilingual means anything other than
English & Spanish. The various Chinatowns might be the only
exception, but I don't remember that being considered officially bilingual.


You lack either imagination or experience. Or both. When I lived
in Daly City, California, "bilingual" meant English and Tagalog.
But I never saw a sign in either chinatown nor Daly City that
said a simple "bilingual" without specificity.

Where, exactly, have you seen signs saying "bilingual" in the USA
that weren't similar to the help wanted sign I used as an example
above where the languages would have been immediately obvious?



************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #43  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:30 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
B Vaughan
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Posts: 1,871
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:09:31 -0600, "spamfree"
wrote:

Name one area in the USA where bilingual means anything other than
English & Spanish. The various Chinatowns might be the only
exception, but I don't remember that being considered officially bilingual.


Several other people have already addressed that point. I know I have
seen ads that specified "bilingual Spanish/English", so obviously not
everyone thinks that is redundant.

Google "bilingual". All except one of the first page entries I get
seem to be from the US, and none assumes that only English/Spanish is
meant.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
  #44  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:31 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Dave Frightens Me
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Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:03:40 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:



Martin Bienwald wrote:

Iceman wrote:

Martin Bienwald wrote:



I think that would be the case in most places with more than one official
or "default" language. I guess in Brussels "bilingual" would mostly refer
to Dutch/French, for example.

Brussels has an annoying way of doing it where the sign for a street is
in one language or the other, not both. So you are looking for "Rue de
Ghent" and when you get to it the sign says "Klixpacqtynstraat."



Oops? Street signs in Brussels are (almost) completely bilingual.


When you can find them! When one is accustomed to findig
street signs on posts at intersections, it's easy to
overlook a small plate tacked up on the wall of a building,
more or less parallel to the street one is crossing.


Milan is bad for that, as there are numerous piazzas, and when you
exit the metro, it all looks the same, with just the piazza name. You
often need to wander quite a way before you find an actual street
name, and then you've probably gone the wrong way!
--
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  #45  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:36 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada
Tanner
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Posts: 7
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Dave Smith wrote:
That is more a matter of a slight accent and different idioms. It is still readily
identifiable as English.


To you -- to someone else the Newfoundland accent and idioms
might just be called a *******ized version of English.

That's what I mean by a loaded statement. In a statement about
English & French in Canada, people replied commenting French isn't real
French -- calling it Quebecoise or a *******ized version.

But it is commonly called French and English in Canada,
accent and idioms and all.

And it's all good.
  #46  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:51 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
spamfree
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Posts: 92
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

Google "bilingual". All except one of the first page entries I get
seem to be from the US, and none assumes that only English/
Spanish is meant.


Italy must have a different version of Google. The first page had
www.nabe.org/
www.latpro.com/
www.bilingualbooks.com/
www.csun.edu/~hcedu013/eslbil.html

all of which refer to Spanish/English.

Try searching on Monster.com in the States for bilingual.


  #47  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:59 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 5,830
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

Hatunen writes:

Another scientific statement from Mixi. I'm waiting for support
for that claim ...


You can study linguistics, as I did, and you'll probably come across
it eventually. Don't expect me to provide it here.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #48  
Old August 23rd, 2006, 11:21 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Dave Frightens Me
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Posts: 2,777
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:08:28 -0700, Hatunen wrote:

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:54:24 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

B Vaughan writes:

An American friend has a 2-year-old grandson whose father is Spanish.
They're trying to raise this little boy to be bilingual. He generally
speaks English to his mother and Spanish to his father. My friend once
heard him ask his mother for "agua" and then correct it to "water".


Small children believe that languages are attached to individuals,
rather than groups.


Another scientific statement from Mixi. I'm waiting for support
for that claim, although I must admit the claim is ambiguous
enough to provide a great deal of wiggle room since a group is
composed of individuals.


It might well be true, but just watch Mixi make it sound like rubbish.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #49  
Old August 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Hatunen
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Posts: 4,483
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:59:32 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

As usual, you deleted the important stuff. YOu said:

# Small children believe that languages are attached to
# individuals, rather than groups.

Hatunen writes:

Another scientific statement from Mixi. I'm waiting for support
for that claim ...


You can study linguistics, as I did, and you'll probably come across
it eventually. Don't expect me to provide it here.


The procss is that someone making a claim should support it if
challenged, not that he should tell teh challenger to go and
"come across it eventually".

I knew you couldn't support your statement. Blowing more smoke

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #50  
Old August 24th, 2006, 01:44 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.usa-canada
Jack Campin - bogus address
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Posts: 779
Default Bilingual in Europe versus USA

No, he's complaining that bilingual in the US always means
English/Spanish while in Europe the two languages have to be
specified. In fact, neither statement is true, as many others have
pointed out.

In fact, it is true in the USA. In Canada, bilingual generally means
English & French. But in most parts of Europe the term bilingual
is meaningless. What would bilingual mean in the UK, France,
Norway, Iceland, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Sweden, Denmark,
or Poland?


In the UK:

Welsh/English in North Wales
Gaelic/English in the Western Isles
Polish/English in a Scottish bus depot
Norwegian/English on any oilrig
Italian/English around Leith Walk in Edinburgh
Mauritian-French-patois/English in my dentist's surgery

and so on. In most of Europe, there is a predominant second language,
but its region of predominance might be quite small. In this village
it's probably Lithuanian, but our Lithuanian-speakers are mostly too
old to go out much so you never hear it spoken in public.


Name one area in the USA where bilingual means anything other than
English & Spanish.


English/French in New Hampshire
English/some-Native-American-language in areas where genocide has not
yet been complete
English/Hawaiian/Japanese in Hawaii

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
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http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
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