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For tourists thinking about South Africa.



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 20th, 2006, 07:26 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
sandy58
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Posts: 33
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/
Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there.
Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime.
Actual crime that does NOT reach the media.

  #2  
Old October 20th, 2006, 08:55 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
Marc Lurie[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 209
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

http://www.sagoodnews.co.za
I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one
positive, sensible website. Your move...

On 19 Oct 2006 23:26:37 -0700, "sandy58" wrote:

http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/
Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there.
Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime.
Actual crime that does NOT reach the media.

  #3  
Old October 20th, 2006, 09:44 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
Wildpicture.com
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Posts: 6
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

Marc Lurie wrote:
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za
I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one
positive, sensible website. Your move...


Marc, I can understand your reaction and indeed the website was
dominated by one view. But so is the website you mention. It too shows
only one side of life in South Africa. I do understand SA businesses
(and certainly those involved in tourism!!!) want to portray SA as one
great and happy country.

I honestly wish it were completely true. In contrast to so many South
Africans leaving their home country (we do have quite a few living over
here in Holland these days!) my wife and I would love to leave Holland
and settle in South Africa. We deeply love the country.

But we feel SA is slowly moving more and more into the direction of
Zimbabwe. Something which he had certainly not expected a few years ago.
Just follow the news of more independant sources like SABC and you'll
see that the majority of news items are either about crime or
corruption. Specially corruption and the governments negligence to truly
act upon that, does worry me a lot. It almost seems normal these days
that government officials either use money for their own or give
lucrative contracts to their friends, disrespecting official tender
legislation and procedures. It is "not done" to criticize these things.
Just take a look at the present situation with SABC´s blacklist of
critical journalists.

Such things should not happen in a truly free and democratic country.
And would about the democratic level of the ANC's attempts to change the
governing structure of the only big city which they do not control? "If
we can't get a democratic majority we will just change the laws".
Doesn't that sound a lot like Zimbabwe?

These things do hurt the country deeply. Southern Africa has a special
place in my heart and I would love to see a true free and democratic
rainbow nation. That would convince me to move over there.

Should tourists avoid South Africa? No! It is too beautiful a country to
avoid. And South Africa bitterly needs these tourists. But we should not
paint a more beautiful picture that it is in reality. South Africa
unfortunately does have some serious worries for the future.

Regards,
Hans

==================================
Hans Martens

Wildlife & Nature Photography
http://www.wildpicture.com
http://www.wildpicture.nl
==================================

  #4  
Old October 20th, 2006, 10:39 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
sandy58
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.


Marc Lurie wrote:
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za
I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one
positive, sensible website. Your move...

On 19 Oct 2006 23:26:37 -0700, "sandy58" wrote:

http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/
Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there.
Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime.
Actual crime that does NOT reach the media.


The truth MUST be told..regardless of the loss of income for your
travel agents. Loss of life is the main concern of MOST of us. Do you
really believe that tourists are safe? Tourists in any country LOOK
like tourist ergo free feeding to the local tsotsis, Marc. I probable
lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral
indignation", laddie. There's a good chap. Think more of the visitors
and less of the wallet.
Now watch this NG for response from prospective tourists. THEY are the
main ones to think of.
YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the
stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-)

  #5  
Old October 20th, 2006, 12:22 PM posted to rec.travel.africa
Marc Lurie[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 209
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:44:14 +0200, "Wildpicture.com"
wrote:

Marc, I can understand your reaction and indeed the website was
dominated by one view. But so is the website you mention. It too shows
only one side of life in South Africa.

Sure it only shows one side. That's why I mentioned it. If you picked
up on my poker analogy (I see you, and raise you...) you'd have seen
that. I don't, for one second, think that it's all wine and roses down
here. I just figured that countering one completely biased site with a
diametrically opposed site would even the playing field somewhat.

I honestly wish it were completely true.

Me too!

In contrast to so many South
Africans leaving their home country (we do have quite a few living over
here in Holland these days!) my wife and I would love to leave Holland
and settle in South Africa. We deeply love the country.

Me too!

SNIP
It almost seems normal these days
that government officials either use money for their own or give
lucrative contracts to their friends, disrespecting official tender
legislation and procedures. It is "not done" to criticize these things.
Just take a look at the present situation with SABC´s blacklist of
critical journalists.

What IS actually encouraging is that we KNOW about these occurences.
With our previous government we never even got to hear about illegal
practices, bribery, corruption, and press censorship. The very fact
that Snuki Zikalala is in the firing line of the press is proof that
these issues WILL NOT be fudged.

Such things should not happen in a truly free and democratic country.

"Embedded" journalists in Iraq?

And would about the democratic level of the ANC's attempts to change the
governing structure of the only big city which they do not control? "If
we can't get a democratic majority we will just change the laws".

Politicians form any country/party will do whatever is possible, in
any way, to gain as much power as possible. That's the nature of the
beast.

SNIP

Should tourists avoid South Africa? No! It is too beautiful a country to
avoid. And South Africa bitterly needs these tourists.

That is my point too! Encouraging tourists NOT to come here doesn't
solve any problems. In fact, that exascerbates the problem. My feeling
is that is exactly what Neil Watson aims to do. I believe that Mr.
Watson would love to see the country destabilised as much as possible
so as to give him more dirt to rake up. Let's face it, you have to be
extremely naive not to read "Kaffir" each time he refers to people as
"New South Africans" although admittedly he has tended to steer clear
of this pejoritive appelation recently.

But we should not
paint a more beautiful picture that it is in reality. South Africa
unfortunately does have some serious worries for the future.

There's no one who understands this, and agrees with you more than me.
If you look through any of my previous posts on this NG I hope you
will see that I have always (I hope) given balanced, sensible, and
responsible advice to visitors.

Regards,
Marc
  #6  
Old October 20th, 2006, 01:21 PM posted to rec.travel.africa
Marc Lurie[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 209
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

On 20 Oct 2006 02:39:05 -0700, "sandy58" wrote:

The truth MUST be told..

You're absolutely correct.

SNIP
Do you
really believe that tourists are safe?

Perfectly safe? No. I have been mugged in England, but never in
Africa. Does that mean that England is unsafe?

Are tourists in Los Angeles safe? Yes, all things considered, tourists
are pretty safe in Los Angeles. Are tourists safe in South Central Los
Angeles? No. How then, is it possible that tourists are safe in Los
Angeles?

It is interesting to note that of all of the Australians that
travelled out of Australia between 1995 and 2003, 158 had been killed
in other countries, not a single one of them was in South Africa.
(around 50 were killed in the bomb in Bali, a "safe" destination)

SNIP
Marc. I probable
lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral
indignation", laddie. There's a good chap.

YOUR HIGHLY INSULTING, PATRONISING, AND CONDESCENDING TONE IS NEITHER
WARRANTED, NOR APPRECIATED.

Think more of the visitors
and less of the wallet.

I am not involved in the hospitality or tourism industry, and derive
no income from either industry. I am a passionate South African with a
deep love for my country, and I want to do something positive to see
my country prosper, grow, and become peaceful. I know that one way to
grow this country is to encourage investment and boost tourism. I will
do whatever I can to see that tourists have a safe and pleasant time
here, and in fact, that's exactly what I have done with several people
who have contacted me via this NG.


YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the
stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-)

I most certainly DO deny some of the stories posted on the site. I
categorically accuse Watson of the irresponsible use of hyperbole, and
of twisting (or even fabricating) statistics to suit his own purposes.

Do yourself a favour and have a look around the internet for some
interesting facts about Mr. Watson's website.

Start he http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=589000
then look at this website: http://www.truecrimexpo.co.za where another
South African exposes some of the innacuracies of Mr. Watson's site as
well as some blatant lies and the use of "borrowed" photographs etc.

One of the most telling fallacious articles posted by Mr. Watson is
his blatant "rip" of an American urban legend which he puts forward as
a description of the South African Parliament. Find the original urban
legend at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/congress.htm Not only
is this an urban legend from ANOTHER country altogether, but Watson
didn't even bother to check the fact that the South African Parliament
doesn't even have the 535 members that Mr. Watson claims.

Now if he can publish blatant untruths, stolen photographs, twisted
statistics etc. how can he be trusted?
  #7  
Old October 20th, 2006, 02:11 PM posted to rec.travel.africa
sandy58
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.


Marc Lurie wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 02:39:05 -0700, "sandy58" wrote:

The truth MUST be told..

You're absolutely correct.

SNIP
Do you
really believe that tourists are safe?

Perfectly safe? No. I have been mugged in England, but never in
Africa. Does that mean that England is unsafe?

Are tourists in Los Angeles safe? Yes, all things considered, tourists
are pretty safe in Los Angeles. Are tourists safe in South Central Los
Angeles? No. How then, is it possible that tourists are safe in Los
Angeles?

It is interesting to note that of all of the Australians that
travelled out of Australia between 1995 and 2003, 158 had been killed
in other countries, not a single one of them was in South Africa.
(around 50 were killed in the bomb in Bali, a "safe" destination)

SNIP
Marc. I probable
lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral
indignation", laddie. There's a good chap.

YOUR HIGHLY INSULTING, PATRONISING, AND CONDESCENDING TONE IS NEITHER
WARRANTED, NOR APPRECIATED.

Think more of the visitors
and less of the wallet.

I am not involved in the hospitality or tourism industry, and derive
no income from either industry. I am a passionate South African with a
deep love for my country, and I want to do something positive to see
my country prosper, grow, and become peaceful. I know that one way to
grow this country is to encourage investment and boost tourism. I will
do whatever I can to see that tourists have a safe and pleasant time
here, and in fact, that's exactly what I have done with several people
who have contacted me via this NG.


YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the
stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-)

I most certainly DO deny some of the stories posted on the site. I
categorically accuse Watson of the irresponsible use of hyperbole, and
of twisting (or even fabricating) statistics to suit his own purposes.

Do yourself a favour and have a look around the internet for some
interesting facts about Mr. Watson's website.

Start he http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=589000
then look at this website: http://www.truecrimexpo.co.za where another
South African exposes some of the innacuracies of Mr. Watson's site as
well as some blatant lies and the use of "borrowed" photographs etc.

One of the most telling fallacious articles posted by Mr. Watson is
his blatant "rip" of an American urban legend which he puts forward as
a description of the South African Parliament. Find the original urban
legend at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/congress.htm Not only
is this an urban legend from ANOTHER country altogether, but Watson
didn't even bother to check the fact that the South African Parliament
doesn't even have the 535 members that Mr. Watson claims.

Now if he can publish blatant untruths, stolen photographs, twisted
statistics etc. how can he be trusted?


OK, Marc. Let's agree to differ. Let the world see BOTH sites and let
THEM choose.
True democracy, yes? :-)

  #8  
Old October 22nd, 2006, 02:54 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
JohnM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

In article . com,
sandy58 writes
OK, Marc. Let's agree to differ. Let the world see BOTH sites and let
THEM choose.
True democracy, yes? :-)


No one disagrees that crime in South Africa is a problem.

But it is not disintegrating into chaos. I wrote an article this year to
be published in the next issue of Travel Africa about Gauteng which I
visited this year and was surprised to see many areas 'turned around'
especially in the old Joburg CBD. They have installed CCTV cameras there
and violent crime has decreased by 80% (The Economist's figures, not
mine). Buildings are being done up in the centre and being sold at high
prices. The word everywhere is 'upgrade'.

IF you go to the website
http://www.saps.gov.za/default.htm

you will see that it looks as if the peak in violent crime seems to have
been reached. One point to remember is that members of the violent
subculture is proportionately more heavily afflicted with AIDS.

Having said that, Marc, I'm afraid I also have some doubts that South
Africa will be able to host the World Cup and that if it does it will be
as successful as we expect. But I surely hope it will succeed.

Let me put in the full sig here to show where I'm coming from.
--
JohnM
Author of Brazil: Life, Blood, Soul &
Rainbow Diary: A Journey in the New South Africa
Member, British Guild of Travel Writers
  #9  
Old October 22nd, 2006, 06:30 AM posted to rec.travel.africa
Mulebear
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.

For what it's worth...

I'm an American who recently spent several days in South Africa. I felt
safer there than I have in some American cities.

I will return to South Africa. I loved it that much.

MB

P. S. Thanks again to Marc for all of his help and advice.


  #10  
Old November 5th, 2006, 04:58 PM posted to rec.travel.africa
riverman[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default For tourists thinking about South Africa.


"Mulebear" wrote in message
hlink.net...
For what it's worth...

I'm an American who recently spent several days in South Africa. I felt
safer there than I have in some American cities.

I will return to South Africa. I loved it that much.

MB

P. S. Thanks again to Marc for all of his help and advice.


And those of you who frequent this group know my credentials. I've lived and
worked in the worst part of Africa (DRC), and have explored much of the
subcontinent and southern Africa. South Africa has a hell of a long way to
go before its even a distant cousin to what is happening in Zimbabwe.
Certainly there is graft and corruption all over the new government, but the
fact that it is regularly exposed in the news and left out to air is
indicative of the new things happening there. Certainly there is violent
crime and blind police, but that's more fault of the remnant few who long
for the 'Good old Bad Old days' than anything else, IMHO.

I disagree that the world should see both sites and decide. Any site with
disinformation or outright lies needs to be discredited. Most of the world
knows too little about SA, and believes hyperbole too easily, to discern
intelligently.

I love SA, but I keep my valuables out of my rental car and avoid certain
places after dark. I do that in most countries.

--riverman


 




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