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#1
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/
Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there. Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime. Actual crime that does NOT reach the media. |
#2
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za
I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one positive, sensible website. Your move... On 19 Oct 2006 23:26:37 -0700, "sandy58" wrote: http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/ Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there. Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime. Actual crime that does NOT reach the media. |
#3
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
Marc Lurie wrote:
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one positive, sensible website. Your move... Marc, I can understand your reaction and indeed the website was dominated by one view. But so is the website you mention. It too shows only one side of life in South Africa. I do understand SA businesses (and certainly those involved in tourism!!!) want to portray SA as one great and happy country. I honestly wish it were completely true. In contrast to so many South Africans leaving their home country (we do have quite a few living over here in Holland these days!) my wife and I would love to leave Holland and settle in South Africa. We deeply love the country. But we feel SA is slowly moving more and more into the direction of Zimbabwe. Something which he had certainly not expected a few years ago. Just follow the news of more independant sources like SABC and you'll see that the majority of news items are either about crime or corruption. Specially corruption and the governments negligence to truly act upon that, does worry me a lot. It almost seems normal these days that government officials either use money for their own or give lucrative contracts to their friends, disrespecting official tender legislation and procedures. It is "not done" to criticize these things. Just take a look at the present situation with SABC´s blacklist of critical journalists. Such things should not happen in a truly free and democratic country. And would about the democratic level of the ANC's attempts to change the governing structure of the only big city which they do not control? "If we can't get a democratic majority we will just change the laws". Doesn't that sound a lot like Zimbabwe? These things do hurt the country deeply. Southern Africa has a special place in my heart and I would love to see a true free and democratic rainbow nation. That would convince me to move over there. Should tourists avoid South Africa? No! It is too beautiful a country to avoid. And South Africa bitterly needs these tourists. But we should not paint a more beautiful picture that it is in reality. South Africa unfortunately does have some serious worries for the future. Regards, Hans ================================== Hans Martens Wildlife & Nature Photography http://www.wildpicture.com http://www.wildpicture.nl ================================== |
#4
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
Marc Lurie wrote: http://www.sagoodnews.co.za I see your negative, racist, and hysterical website, and raise you one positive, sensible website. Your move... On 19 Oct 2006 23:26:37 -0700, "sandy58" wrote: http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org/ Get daily updates on the situation on South Africa before going there. Read about the loss of life, property & especially Airport crime. Actual crime that does NOT reach the media. The truth MUST be told..regardless of the loss of income for your travel agents. Loss of life is the main concern of MOST of us. Do you really believe that tourists are safe? Tourists in any country LOOK like tourist ergo free feeding to the local tsotsis, Marc. I probable lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral indignation", laddie. There's a good chap. Think more of the visitors and less of the wallet. Now watch this NG for response from prospective tourists. THEY are the main ones to think of. YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-) |
#5
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:44:14 +0200, "Wildpicture.com"
wrote: Marc, I can understand your reaction and indeed the website was dominated by one view. But so is the website you mention. It too shows only one side of life in South Africa. Sure it only shows one side. That's why I mentioned it. If you picked up on my poker analogy (I see you, and raise you...) you'd have seen that. I don't, for one second, think that it's all wine and roses down here. I just figured that countering one completely biased site with a diametrically opposed site would even the playing field somewhat. I honestly wish it were completely true. Me too! In contrast to so many South Africans leaving their home country (we do have quite a few living over here in Holland these days!) my wife and I would love to leave Holland and settle in South Africa. We deeply love the country. Me too! SNIP It almost seems normal these days that government officials either use money for their own or give lucrative contracts to their friends, disrespecting official tender legislation and procedures. It is "not done" to criticize these things. Just take a look at the present situation with SABC´s blacklist of critical journalists. What IS actually encouraging is that we KNOW about these occurences. With our previous government we never even got to hear about illegal practices, bribery, corruption, and press censorship. The very fact that Snuki Zikalala is in the firing line of the press is proof that these issues WILL NOT be fudged. Such things should not happen in a truly free and democratic country. "Embedded" journalists in Iraq? And would about the democratic level of the ANC's attempts to change the governing structure of the only big city which they do not control? "If we can't get a democratic majority we will just change the laws". Politicians form any country/party will do whatever is possible, in any way, to gain as much power as possible. That's the nature of the beast. SNIP Should tourists avoid South Africa? No! It is too beautiful a country to avoid. And South Africa bitterly needs these tourists. That is my point too! Encouraging tourists NOT to come here doesn't solve any problems. In fact, that exascerbates the problem. My feeling is that is exactly what Neil Watson aims to do. I believe that Mr. Watson would love to see the country destabilised as much as possible so as to give him more dirt to rake up. Let's face it, you have to be extremely naive not to read "Kaffir" each time he refers to people as "New South Africans" although admittedly he has tended to steer clear of this pejoritive appelation recently. But we should not paint a more beautiful picture that it is in reality. South Africa unfortunately does have some serious worries for the future. There's no one who understands this, and agrees with you more than me. If you look through any of my previous posts on this NG I hope you will see that I have always (I hope) given balanced, sensible, and responsible advice to visitors. Regards, Marc |
#6
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
On 20 Oct 2006 02:39:05 -0700, "sandy58" wrote:
The truth MUST be told.. You're absolutely correct. SNIP Do you really believe that tourists are safe? Perfectly safe? No. I have been mugged in England, but never in Africa. Does that mean that England is unsafe? Are tourists in Los Angeles safe? Yes, all things considered, tourists are pretty safe in Los Angeles. Are tourists safe in South Central Los Angeles? No. How then, is it possible that tourists are safe in Los Angeles? It is interesting to note that of all of the Australians that travelled out of Australia between 1995 and 2003, 158 had been killed in other countries, not a single one of them was in South Africa. (around 50 were killed in the bomb in Bali, a "safe" destination) SNIP Marc. I probable lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral indignation", laddie. There's a good chap. YOUR HIGHLY INSULTING, PATRONISING, AND CONDESCENDING TONE IS NEITHER WARRANTED, NOR APPRECIATED. Think more of the visitors and less of the wallet. I am not involved in the hospitality or tourism industry, and derive no income from either industry. I am a passionate South African with a deep love for my country, and I want to do something positive to see my country prosper, grow, and become peaceful. I know that one way to grow this country is to encourage investment and boost tourism. I will do whatever I can to see that tourists have a safe and pleasant time here, and in fact, that's exactly what I have done with several people who have contacted me via this NG. YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-) I most certainly DO deny some of the stories posted on the site. I categorically accuse Watson of the irresponsible use of hyperbole, and of twisting (or even fabricating) statistics to suit his own purposes. Do yourself a favour and have a look around the internet for some interesting facts about Mr. Watson's website. Start he http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=589000 then look at this website: http://www.truecrimexpo.co.za where another South African exposes some of the innacuracies of Mr. Watson's site as well as some blatant lies and the use of "borrowed" photographs etc. One of the most telling fallacious articles posted by Mr. Watson is his blatant "rip" of an American urban legend which he puts forward as a description of the South African Parliament. Find the original urban legend at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/congress.htm Not only is this an urban legend from ANOTHER country altogether, but Watson didn't even bother to check the fact that the South African Parliament doesn't even have the 535 members that Mr. Watson claims. Now if he can publish blatant untruths, stolen photographs, twisted statistics etc. how can he be trusted? |
#7
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
Marc Lurie wrote: On 20 Oct 2006 02:39:05 -0700, "sandy58" wrote: The truth MUST be told.. You're absolutely correct. SNIP Do you really believe that tourists are safe? Perfectly safe? No. I have been mugged in England, but never in Africa. Does that mean that England is unsafe? Are tourists in Los Angeles safe? Yes, all things considered, tourists are pretty safe in Los Angeles. Are tourists safe in South Central Los Angeles? No. How then, is it possible that tourists are safe in Los Angeles? It is interesting to note that of all of the Australians that travelled out of Australia between 1995 and 2003, 158 had been killed in other countries, not a single one of them was in South Africa. (around 50 were killed in the bomb in Bali, a "safe" destination) SNIP Marc. I probable lived in southern Africa longer than you have lived so spare the "moral indignation", laddie. There's a good chap. YOUR HIGHLY INSULTING, PATRONISING, AND CONDESCENDING TONE IS NEITHER WARRANTED, NOR APPRECIATED. Think more of the visitors and less of the wallet. I am not involved in the hospitality or tourism industry, and derive no income from either industry. I am a passionate South African with a deep love for my country, and I want to do something positive to see my country prosper, grow, and become peaceful. I know that one way to grow this country is to encourage investment and boost tourism. I will do whatever I can to see that tourists have a safe and pleasant time here, and in fact, that's exactly what I have done with several people who have contacted me via this NG. YOUR move.............but make it the TRUTH!!! Or do you deny the stories on the site I posted? I doubt THAT!! :-) I most certainly DO deny some of the stories posted on the site. I categorically accuse Watson of the irresponsible use of hyperbole, and of twisting (or even fabricating) statistics to suit his own purposes. Do yourself a favour and have a look around the internet for some interesting facts about Mr. Watson's website. Start he http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=589000 then look at this website: http://www.truecrimexpo.co.za where another South African exposes some of the innacuracies of Mr. Watson's site as well as some blatant lies and the use of "borrowed" photographs etc. One of the most telling fallacious articles posted by Mr. Watson is his blatant "rip" of an American urban legend which he puts forward as a description of the South African Parliament. Find the original urban legend at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/congress.htm Not only is this an urban legend from ANOTHER country altogether, but Watson didn't even bother to check the fact that the South African Parliament doesn't even have the 535 members that Mr. Watson claims. Now if he can publish blatant untruths, stolen photographs, twisted statistics etc. how can he be trusted? OK, Marc. Let's agree to differ. Let the world see BOTH sites and let THEM choose. True democracy, yes? :-) |
#8
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
In article . com,
sandy58 writes OK, Marc. Let's agree to differ. Let the world see BOTH sites and let THEM choose. True democracy, yes? :-) No one disagrees that crime in South Africa is a problem. But it is not disintegrating into chaos. I wrote an article this year to be published in the next issue of Travel Africa about Gauteng which I visited this year and was surprised to see many areas 'turned around' especially in the old Joburg CBD. They have installed CCTV cameras there and violent crime has decreased by 80% (The Economist's figures, not mine). Buildings are being done up in the centre and being sold at high prices. The word everywhere is 'upgrade'. IF you go to the website http://www.saps.gov.za/default.htm you will see that it looks as if the peak in violent crime seems to have been reached. One point to remember is that members of the violent subculture is proportionately more heavily afflicted with AIDS. Having said that, Marc, I'm afraid I also have some doubts that South Africa will be able to host the World Cup and that if it does it will be as successful as we expect. But I surely hope it will succeed. Let me put in the full sig here to show where I'm coming from. -- JohnM Author of Brazil: Life, Blood, Soul & Rainbow Diary: A Journey in the New South Africa Member, British Guild of Travel Writers |
#9
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
For what it's worth...
I'm an American who recently spent several days in South Africa. I felt safer there than I have in some American cities. I will return to South Africa. I loved it that much. MB P. S. Thanks again to Marc for all of his help and advice. |
#10
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For tourists thinking about South Africa.
"Mulebear" wrote in message hlink.net... For what it's worth... I'm an American who recently spent several days in South Africa. I felt safer there than I have in some American cities. I will return to South Africa. I loved it that much. MB P. S. Thanks again to Marc for all of his help and advice. And those of you who frequent this group know my credentials. I've lived and worked in the worst part of Africa (DRC), and have explored much of the subcontinent and southern Africa. South Africa has a hell of a long way to go before its even a distant cousin to what is happening in Zimbabwe. Certainly there is graft and corruption all over the new government, but the fact that it is regularly exposed in the news and left out to air is indicative of the new things happening there. Certainly there is violent crime and blind police, but that's more fault of the remnant few who long for the 'Good old Bad Old days' than anything else, IMHO. I disagree that the world should see both sites and decide. Any site with disinformation or outright lies needs to be discredited. Most of the world knows too little about SA, and believes hyperbole too easily, to discern intelligently. I love SA, but I keep my valuables out of my rental car and avoid certain places after dark. I do that in most countries. --riverman |
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