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#31
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German language in south Tirol
Wolfgang Schwanke:
"Erick T. Barkhuis" wrote in : Wolfgang Schwanke: "Erick T. Barkhuis": Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and Hannover. No not really, that's a legend. .... (I just returned from a bakery store in Bad Essen. Staff and customers all speak Hochdeutsch, there. Without any local accent.) That happens in all major cities at least in Northern Germany. But that doesn't mean Hochdeutsch is the local dialect, which is what the OP inquired - it isn't anywhere. It means the people there have largely abandoned their local dialects in favour of the standard language. I understand the actual Hanover dialect is still being spoken here and there. Ah, I understand what you're saying. Well, that leaves us with the question: "If only a small minority still speaks the 'old' local dialect, is it still considered that region's dialect, even if a large majority speaks something else?" [I agree with you that the OP specifically asked whether or not Hochdeutsch is a local dialect somewhere. My first answer rather covered the question in which area Hochdeutsch is mostly and generally spoken among locals.] |
#32
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German language in south Tirol
On 01/13/2013 09:12 PM, Erick T. Barkhuis wrote:
Wolfgang Schwanke: "Erick T. Barkhuis" wrote in : Wolfgang Schwanke: "Erick T. Barkhuis": Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and Hannover. No not really, that's a legend. ... (I just returned from a bakery store in Bad Essen. Staff and customers all speak Hochdeutsch, there. Without any local accent.) That happens in all major cities at least in Northern Germany. But that doesn't mean Hochdeutsch is the local dialect, which is what the OP inquired - it isn't anywhere. It means the people there have largely abandoned their local dialects in favour of the standard language. I understand the actual Hanover dialect is still being spoken here and there. Ah, I understand what you're saying. Well, that leaves us with the question: "If only a small minority still speaks the 'old' local dialect, is it still considered that region's dialect, even if a large majority speaks something else?" [I agree with you that the OP specifically asked whether or not Hochdeutsch is a local dialect somewhere. My first answer rather covered the question in which area Hochdeutsch is mostly and generally spoken among locals.] I was surprised to read that historically, Hochdeutsch is the language of Southern Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Nowadays the accent in these areas is very distinct from Standard German. |
#33
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German language in south Tirol
Tom P wrote:
On 01/13/2013 09:12 PM, Erick T. Barkhuis wrote: Wolfgang Schwanke: "Erick T. Barkhuis" wrote in : Wolfgang Schwanke: "Erick T. Barkhuis": Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and Hannover. No not really, that's a legend. ... (I just returned from a bakery store in Bad Essen. Staff and customers all speak Hochdeutsch, there. Without any local accent.) That happens in all major cities at least in Northern Germany. But that doesn't mean Hochdeutsch is the local dialect, which is what the OP inquired - it isn't anywhere. It means the people there have largely abandoned their local dialects in favour of the standard language. I understand the actual Hanover dialect is still being spoken here and there. Ah, I understand what you're saying. Well, that leaves us with the question: "If only a small minority still speaks the 'old' local dialect, is it still considered that region's dialect, even if a large majority speaks something else?" [I agree with you that the OP specifically asked whether or not Hochdeutsch is a local dialect somewhere. My first answer rather covered the question in which area Hochdeutsch is mostly and generally spoken among locals.] I was surprised to read that historically, Hochdeutsch is the language of Southern Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Nowadays the accent in these areas is very distinct from Standard German. Terminology change. The dialect varieties in the south developed in Alemannic, Swabian, and Bavarian in the higher country. In the north, it was flatand low: Low German dialects, including the ancester of Dutch. In the middle you had Thuringian, Frankish, and others. The ancestor of modern Hochdeutsch was Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German, which made the middle German he used a common dialect for Lutherans. It was not one of the "high" or mountain dialects, which are the ancestors of the southern dialects of today. -- Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad |
#34
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
No, Hochdeutsch is an artificial dialect invented by scribes about 500 years ago [...] However, in large parts of Germany - mostly in the North, and mostly in bigger cities, Hochdeutsch has supplanted the local dialects That's not unlike Italian, which stems from the Tuscan language as spoken/written by literates in 1200-1500. In practice it has supplanted "local dialects" (*) only after WWII ... here too mainly in bigger cities and in the North ... (*) several of which are families of independent neolatin languages |
#35
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:12:10 AM UTC, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: No, Hochdeutsch is an artificial dialect invented by scribes about 500 years ago [...] However, in large parts of Germany - mostly in the North, and mostly in bigger cities, Hochdeutsch has supplanted the local dialects That's not unlike Italian, which stems from the Tuscan language as spoken/written by literates in 1200-1500. In practice it has supplanted "local dialects" (*) only after WWII ... here too mainly in bigger cities and in the North ... (*) several of which are families of independent neolatin languages All unlike "BBC English", which comes from no region, certainly not London. I assume it's really from "educated" English, and now widespread due to BBC etc. use? |
#36
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Surreyman wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:12:10 AM UTC, Giovanni Drogo wrote: On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: No, Hochdeutsch is an artificial dialect invented by scribes about 500 years ago [...] That's not unlike Italian, which stems from the Tuscan language as spoken/written by literates in 1200-1500. All unlike "BBC English", which comes from no region, certainly not London. I assume it's really from "educated" English, and now widespread due to BBC etc. use? Well ... spoken Italian surely owes its post-WWII spread to TV (although written Italian was taught in schools since 1860's for those who went to school). However regional inflections are common (you can tell where one comes from because of his/her accent). The standardization was mainly in the lexicon, not in pronounciation. Actually people in Tuscany have a marked local accent, though they (even the humblest person in the street) use "cultivated" words and expressions which nobody else will use but in written form, and only writing literature. There was a saying "tuscan tongue in roman mouth" to indicate a sort of ideal pronounciation, but a so called "standard pronounciation" was taught only to actors (and TV speakers I believe until the mid 60's). Nowadays local accents (and impolite lexicon) are heard everywhere in TV. |
#37
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 2013-01-15 03:12:10 -0600, Giovanni Drogo said:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: No, Hochdeutsch is an artificial dialect invented by scribes about 500 years ago [...] However, in large parts of Germany - mostly in the North, and mostly in bigger cities, Hochdeutsch has supplanted the local dialects That's not unlike Italian, which stems from the Tuscan language as spoken/written by literates in 1200-1500. In practice it has supplanted "local dialects" (*) only after WWII ... here too mainly in bigger cities and in the North ... (*) several of which are families of independent neolatin languages You are referring to Dante? I read a history of Italy by H B Cotterill, that he promulgated the Bolognese as the most refined dialect, as standard. Have you heard of this? The history also reported how during one of the end-of-the-world cults that sprung up before the Renaissance, how one of the charismatics failed to impress the Romans with his Latin. Apparently, though the Romans had the common tongue, they still knew Latin and it was used for formal and literary purposes. So the Romans laughed at the barbarous Latin spoken by the charismatic! -- Dan Stephenson http://stepheda.com Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too) |
#38
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#39
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Dan Stephenson wrote:
You are referring to Dante? I read a history of Italy by H B Cotterill, that he promulgated the Bolognese as the most refined dialect, as standard. Have you heard of this? No, I've never read the "De Vulgari Eloquentia" (although I know its name, more or less could be translated "about people's speech" maube you could find a "translation-at-front" version). That's the "scientific" work of Dante, in which he compared the dialect of Italy (or perhaps Italy and France) as spoken in his times. And of course he wrote its "scientific" texts in Latin ! What is taught in schools is Dante's "fictional" work ( :-)) i.e. the Commedia. |
#40
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
No, I've never read the "De Vulgari Eloquentia" (although I know its name, more or less could be translated "about people's speech" maube you could find a "translation-at-front" version). Actually this site http://www.danteonline.it/english/op...pe=3&idlang=OR has the full text, Latin, modern Italian and English translations. |
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