Lengthening, of Enchantment of the Seas!

"Eileen" wrote in message
...
Quality of cuisine, quality of service, ship maintenance,

The first two are clearly subjective determinations,

Not when DiGels or a Nexium are required after eating poor quality
seafood.

--Tom

I can't even believe you can say that with a straight face, Tom!
DiGels or Nexium usage happens! It happens to the best of us! It's
sometimes, more a factor of age..certainly, never a ships food. Not "all"
of
us.. if you find the need for these antacids (however, newfangled they
are)
, I suspect that you, more and more, need these antacids wherever you
are..
Those who, truly, suffer severe heartburn/acid reflux KNOW that it can an
d
will show up/rear it's ugly head anywhere! Land or Sea! Really, you've
gone
too far, way over board, trying to make your point.
If, and, I do mean IF..you're talking poor quality seafood...well.. you'd
need more, quite a bit more, than Nexium!
Eileen


I didn't mean "BAD/SPOILED" seafood. Just not "quality" seafood. Good fish
doesn't have any fish smell.

There is really good fish... and there is not so "really good" fish.

When you get fish that has a fishy smell... that's not just subjective (as
the earlier post suggested).

--Tom

kuki wrote:

I'm one of the voices identifying a
declining standard for premium mass market and a hole that is present in
a product between the premium mass market and the luxury lines. I think
it is possible that as premium mass market cruisers get more cruises
under their belt they may want to move up the next notch, but not quite
up to Radissson or Crystal. And there's where the hole is present


Ben S

Ben..

I actually disagreee with the declining standard theory! There was a "blip"
after 9/11, largely due to the need to deeply discount pricing. The cruise
lines had to react to the lower pricing with cost cutting measures, and
lowered their food, and staffing budgets along with other areas.


Fair enough. The nature of the product is changing to a point that some
consider a declining standard. Take HAL. It used to be known for less
nickel and diming than the other mass market lines. But on the newer
Zuiderdam ships the free popcorn is gone, even the movie theater is
gone, the no-cost better coffee in the Java Bar is gone, there used to
be no charge for the higher quality Italian restaurant, now there is.
These are examples of a change in operation that some regard as going
from a premium standard of including some things to a more mass market
standard. Perhaps it is just unbundled beating out bundled for perceived
passenger flexibility, however those sailing HAL over the years will
notice more evidence of nickel and diming and how HAL ships/cruises more
resemble other ships/cruises of other fleets and have loss some of the
"HALness".

The prices have slowly been coming up, and with it, most of the cruise lines
are returning to their A menus (or close)...and bringing back higher quality
food items, and staffing levels are returning as well.

Duly noted. Good development.

I cruised Celebrity in 94, and I've cruised them more recently (with
Millennium scheduled for Nov.), and in my humble opinion, I prefer todays
Celebrity. I think sometimes "bad memories" make "the glory years" more than
they really were G



That's certainly true.

I can specifically point to many things that were of a much higher
standard in my cruises onboard Galaxy and Century in 99 vs. the Connie
cruise in 2002. But that was 2 years ago so my data now is dated. One
thing is certain in my mind, though the Millie ships are richly
appointed, they feel much more like commodity ships, due to their
obvious sharing of furnishings than do the more unique Century ships,
that were built with more uncompromised creativity.

Ben

Regards,
Kuki
Features Editor
http://cruisemates.com
Internet Cruise Magazine
Fun and Friendship= http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/CMcruise

kuki wrote:

I'm one of the voices identifying a
declining standard for premium mass market and a hole that is present in
a product between the premium mass market and the luxury lines. I think
it is possible that as premium mass market cruisers get more cruises
under their belt they may want to move up the next notch, but not quite
up to Radissson or Crystal. And there's where the hole is present


Ben S

Ben..

I actually disagreee with the declining standard theory! There was a "blip"
after 9/11, largely due to the need to deeply discount pricing. The cruise
lines had to react to the lower pricing with cost cutting measures, and
lowered their food, and staffing budgets along with other areas.


Fair enough. The nature of the product is changing to a point that some
consider a declining standard. Take HAL. It used to be known for less
nickel and diming than the other mass market lines. But on the newer
Zuiderdam ships the free popcorn is gone, even the movie theater is
gone, the no-cost better coffee in the Java Bar is gone, there used to
be no charge for the higher quality Italian restaurant, now there is.
These are examples of a change in operation that some regard as going
from a premium standard of including some things to a more mass market
standard. Perhaps it is just unbundled beating out bundled for perceived
passenger flexibility, however those sailing HAL over the years will
notice more evidence of nickel and diming and how HAL ships/cruises more
resemble other ships/cruises of other fleets and have loss some of the
"HALness".

The prices have slowly been coming up, and with it, most of the cruise lines
are returning to their A menus (or close)...and bringing back higher quality
food items, and staffing levels are returning as well.

Duly noted. Good development.

I cruised Celebrity in 94, and I've cruised them more recently (with
Millennium scheduled for Nov.), and in my humble opinion, I prefer todays
Celebrity. I think sometimes "bad memories" make "the glory years" more than
they really were G



That's certainly true.

I can specifically point to many things that were of a much higher
standard in my cruises onboard Galaxy and Century in 99 vs. the Connie
cruise in 2002. But that was 2 years ago so my data now is dated. One
thing is certain in my mind, though the Millie ships are richly
appointed, they feel much more like commodity ships, due to their
obvious sharing of furnishings than do the more unique Century ships,
that were built with more uncompromised creativity.

Ben

Regards,
Kuki
Features Editor
http://cruisemates.com
Internet Cruise Magazine
Fun and Friendship= http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/CMcruise

Tom & Linda wrote:

"Benjamin Smith" wrote in message
news

But, to tell you the truth, I'd like to see Celebrity go with a 50,000
ton new Zenith with balconies and charge a percentage more for her. Just
a trial.


Expensive trial. $300 million experiment?


There's risk in any business. I don't see it as that big a stretch,
however. Princess already has the ex R ships, HAL is doing something
similar with the Prinsendam, charging more on a smaller, more
personalized ship and it's proved to be successful and popular so far. I
think the Xpedition ships are a bigger stretch for Celebrity than
something like a new Zenith. It doesn't have to be called Zenith, but
could have some of the current Zenith's character in an updated but
timeless style, and incorporate Century class and a few Millie features
as well. All upgraded. It will probably also have to have a specialty
restaurant, but one stressing service and intimacy over higher quality
of food. Perhaps it would have more exotic menus.

Though in truth... if you want balconies, and want Bermuda, and are willing
to pay more, why not just go with Radisson?


This isn't for Bermuda, expressly. It may be for more "exotic"
itineraries, for longer than 10 days and beyond, and for those Celebrity
passengers that have expressed they want a level of cuisine and product
that more closely resembles the early Celebrity product. It should be a
900-1000 pax ship with a high amount of upper-level staterooms. For
Bermuda, the Horizon and current Zenith may be in service for a while
longer. It's seems it's up in the air about adding balconies and
upgrades at this point. As I said in an earlier point, this type of
vessel was considered by Celebrity a few years ago. I hope it is
reconsidered in some form at some time in the future.

As for Radisson, too big a jump, both in price and prestige. Same for
Crystal. This would be closer to Oceania price points, but another
choice. This would fill that hole for a new, smaller premium ship for
the NA market, and I think if it is one ship there would be demand.
There are people now that sail Zenith and Horizon not because of
Bermuda, but because of their size, and even though they are more modest
and early 1990s vintage, the size is the draw.


Bring back the old standards of food and lack of obvious
revenue enhancers and see how much she'd draw. Or, they could have
bought one of the ex Ren ships.


That would have been a good idea IMO. Even if not for Bermuda, but for some
of the "new" type things they're trying.


There are some European ships they could use, recent vintage European
ships are considerably smaller on average than those for the Asian (at
least Star) and North American markets.

Ben S.

--Tom

Tom & Linda wrote:

"Benjamin Smith" wrote in message
news

But, to tell you the truth, I'd like to see Celebrity go with a 50,000
ton new Zenith with balconies and charge a percentage more for her. Just
a trial.


Expensive trial. $300 million experiment?


There's risk in any business. I don't see it as that big a stretch,
however. Princess already has the ex R ships, HAL is doing something
similar with the Prinsendam, charging more on a smaller, more
personalized ship and it's proved to be successful and popular so far. I
think the Xpedition ships are a bigger stretch for Celebrity than
something like a new Zenith. It doesn't have to be called Zenith, but
could have some of the current Zenith's character in an updated but
timeless style, and incorporate Century class and a few Millie features
as well. All upgraded. It will probably also have to have a specialty
restaurant, but one stressing service and intimacy over higher quality
of food. Perhaps it would have more exotic menus.

Though in truth... if you want balconies, and want Bermuda, and are willing
to pay more, why not just go with Radisson?


This isn't for Bermuda, expressly. It may be for more "exotic"
itineraries, for longer than 10 days and beyond, and for those Celebrity
passengers that have expressed they want a level of cuisine and product
that more closely resembles the early Celebrity product. It should be a
900-1000 pax ship with a high amount of upper-level staterooms. For
Bermuda, the Horizon and current Zenith may be in service for a while
longer. It's seems it's up in the air about adding balconies and
upgrades at this point. As I said in an earlier point, this type of
vessel was considered by Celebrity a few years ago. I hope it is
reconsidered in some form at some time in the future.

As for Radisson, too big a jump, both in price and prestige. Same for
Crystal. This would be closer to Oceania price points, but another
choice. This would fill that hole for a new, smaller premium ship for
the NA market, and I think if it is one ship there would be demand.
There are people now that sail Zenith and Horizon not because of
Bermuda, but because of their size, and even though they are more modest
and early 1990s vintage, the size is the draw.


Bring back the old standards of food and lack of obvious
revenue enhancers and see how much she'd draw. Or, they could have
bought one of the ex Ren ships.


That would have been a good idea IMO. Even if not for Bermuda, but for some
of the "new" type things they're trying.


There are some European ships they could use, recent vintage European
ships are considerably smaller on average than those for the Asian (at
least Star) and North American markets.

Ben S.

--Tom

A Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:15:16 GMT, Benjamin Smith
escribió:
My views are those of a customer. I don't claim to have business
knowledge.

Great! Then we have clear delineation.

My problem with you is that you often call my views personal.

Views are, by definition, personal. You make great play
about sharing them anecdotally, but anecdotal data isn't
reliable.

My discipline is music, not business

I'm a retired international management consultant. I write
software now. That's what I know: Business and software, so
if you catch me trying to tell someone what makes music
evoke a specific emotion, call me on it.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

A Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:15:16 GMT, Benjamin Smith
escribió:
My views are those of a customer. I don't claim to have business
knowledge.

Great! Then we have clear delineation.

My problem with you is that you often call my views personal.

Views are, by definition, personal. You make great play
about sharing them anecdotally, but anecdotal data isn't
reliable.

My discipline is music, not business

I'm a retired international management consultant. I write
software now. That's what I know: Business and software, so
if you catch me trying to tell someone what makes music
evoke a specific emotion, call me on it.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

I'm one of the voices identifying a declining standard

And remember, it isn't something I dispute. Rather, I
attribute declining standards, across a multitude of
consumer businesses, to customer-driven market analysis.

I think
it is possible that as premium mass market cruisers get more cruises
under their belt they may want to move up the next notch

Let's go a step further than that: If the economy improves
further, and the United States regains and gets beyond where
our standard of living was in the Clinton Presidency, I
think it rational to expect that the typical consumer will
expect a higher standard (and not be surprised or turned-off
by having to pay more for it).

I actually disagreee with the declining standard theory! There was a "blip"
after 9/11, largely due to the need to deeply discount pricing. The cruise
lines had to react to the lower pricing with cost cutting measures, and
lowered their food, and staffing budgets along with other areas.

That's some "blip"! I can see how some would give it more
standing than that. I hope your optimism is well-founded,
that we recover from that trough, and that we aren't looking
at a long-term depression of the standard of living.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

I'm one of the voices identifying a declining standard

And remember, it isn't something I dispute. Rather, I
attribute declining standards, across a multitude of
consumer businesses, to customer-driven market analysis.

I think
it is possible that as premium mass market cruisers get more cruises
under their belt they may want to move up the next notch

Let's go a step further than that: If the economy improves
further, and the United States regains and gets beyond where
our standard of living was in the Clinton Presidency, I
think it rational to expect that the typical consumer will
expect a higher standard (and not be surprised or turned-off
by having to pay more for it).

I actually disagreee with the declining standard theory! There was a "blip"
after 9/11, largely due to the need to deeply discount pricing. The cruise
lines had to react to the lower pricing with cost cutting measures, and
lowered their food, and staffing budgets along with other areas.

That's some "blip"! I can see how some would give it more
standing than that. I hope your optimism is well-founded,
that we recover from that trough, and that we aren't looking
at a long-term depression of the standard of living.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

A Tue, 03 Aug 2004 01:29:08 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:
One cruise may make you expert enough to read messages. But it might not be
enough to be able to adequately judge what someone else is saying.

Well, let's be clearer. If we're talking about business,
reading messages and going on cruises doesn't provide as
much insight as actually working with lots of business
leaders in a variety of countries and industries.

Since
many of us have multiple cruises (some up to 50+), we tend to look at things
from a broader perspective.

However, distinctly customer-biased. Rightfully so,
perhaps, but that's all-the-more reason for a strong
balancing perspective from the business standpoint.

With only one sailing, it can't give you a
perspective on different lines. It can't give you a perspective in
different itineraries - like Europe, Bermuda, Alaska, Caribbean, etc.

And you won't see me making qualitative comparative
statements. Everything I have said has been with respect to
the way companies interact with markets; I haven't said
anything about how HAL compares to NCL, or how one itinerary
is affected by certain factors while another is not.

When I read comments from someone who's only ever been on one line... I do
the same "rolling eyes". They have nothing to compare to.

When I read comments from folks who haven't helped run
large, customer-facing companies, I feel the same way.

I think you need (like Bill Parcells used to say) a few pelts on your belt,
before you can play expert here.

What is need here is a few CEOs or CFOs of multi-million
dollar businesses, who cruise a lot on vacation. Until
then, we'll have to make due to the partial knowledge we
each can contribute.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html