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Air France? Ptui!



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 19th, 2006, 03:26 AM posted to rec.travel.air
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Default Air France? Ptui!


James Robinson wrote:
wrote:


In the glossary preceding this section is the
definition of Force Majeu
unusual and unforeseen circumstances
beyond your control, the consequences
of which could not have been avoided
even if all due care had been exercised.

Does illness count as force majeure? If you do
a Web search on ["force majeure" illness],
you'll see that it does.


You will find that legally, it does not. Force Majeure provisions are
typically geared toward events that a careful person could not foresee,
such as riot, insurrection, political upheaval, catastrophic fires,
earthquakes, or inability to provide a service because of actions of a
third party, etc. Illness is considered to be something that people
have to insure themselves against, hence the ready availablility of
flight cancellation insurance.


Further the force majeure clause in the ticket basically says that if
the airline cancels flights because it has declared force majeure the
passenger is protected. It does not give the passenger the right to
declare force majeure because taking the flight wasn't convenient for
him, even for health reasons.

My main point in my OP, as some followups
did note, was how Air France holds the
customer at arm's length, like some bad
wine.


You will get the same treatment by all the airlines. You purchased a
low-cost, non-refundable ticket, and now are asking for a refund.


Exactly. One of the calculations in the low cost tickets is the fact
that some people will buy the ticket then not use them. This helps
defray the total cost. If the tickets were refundable they would, by
necessity, be higher priced.

What we have here is someone not willing to accept responsibility for
his own decisions. I'm not particularly a fan of Air France. ('ve been
on over 100 Air France flights (I'm including UTA in that, about half
the total) and I don't recall ever getting what I'd call great service
in the air. Their ground staff in Paris was OK. Their staff in San
Francisco was extremely helpful in many cases.) But what's right is
right and the original poster seems way out of line with his complaint.

  #12  
Old February 19th, 2006, 03:07 PM posted to rec.travel.air
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Default Air France? Ptui!


Matthias van Henk wrote:
I am afraid this is is misunderstanding. Clauses like "force majeure" or
"act of god" do not include illness or even death of passenger but only
incidents that are caused by third party action (strike, war etc.) or
natural disasters. This is a fact. You should contact a real lawyer, if
you have doubts. Although Google is a good search engine, it will not be
able to give you legal advice for your special situation.

In my long year experience as a travel agent I can tell you that
monetary damagages as a result of illness may be covered by the fare
rules of your transportation contract with Air France. If not, you could
have bought an insurance. You may tell us your exact fare name and I
will be happy to pull the rules from my CRS and tell it to you.

There is a pretty good definition of force majeure at
http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/forcegen.shtml


This is interesting, and on the legal particulars,
tentatively I stand corrected. On the matter of
travel insurance, I considered buying a policy,
fully aware that I was advancing several thousand
dollars not only for air tickets but also for a
deposit to a tour group for an trip that was
much farther in the future than I typically plan
vacations. However, I decided that insurance would
be worth its high premium -- about 10 percent of
the total cost of the fares -- ONLY if I required
refunds if the trip had to be cancelled. The
alternative to receiving a refund, of course, is
to accept credit for future services, minus
the cost of reasonable administrative fees.
I reasoned that no reputable business would
refuse to negotiate this. With more than a month
to go before the start of the trip, United
Air and the tour operator DID negotiate it;
instantly, by phone. (...and I didn't have to
check for NONEGOT on my receipts, haha.)

So, while we'll be missing out on the solar
eclipse in Africa on March 29, at least we have
the Alaskan aurora to look forward to in late
September. But will we be taking our Thanksgiving
dinner in Paris? I don't know that Air France
won't negotiate; I just know that its institutional
structure is making it impossible to find out.

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

  #15  
Old February 20th, 2006, 11:12 AM posted to rec.travel.air
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Default Air France? Ptui!

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:40:47 GMT, mrtravel
wrote:

wrote:
When I went to the Air France office
to get credit for the trip we won't be
able to take because of my wife's sudden
illness, it took only a few seconds
before I realized I wasn't going to get
any further there than I had gotten
with AF's phone center. The reason is
that the guy there didn't have any more
authority to settle the issue than
did the phone people.


In your mind, the only way to settle this dispute is if you win.


Any company that values consumer
goodwill would by this time have
acted on the adage that "the customer
is always right." I mean, I was willing
to take time off from work and go
down there in person, for chrissake.


No, the customer isn't always right.
If you want to buy a ticket that isn't as restrictive, pay more and buy
one. Alternatively, why do you think there is trip insurance?


The substantive issues -- the meaning of
force majeure, etc., I'll take up in a
thread shortly that I'll cross-post
from misc.legal.


A sick wife is probably not going to qualify as a "Force Majeure"
as people often get sick.


If you bought a ticket that is non refundable and non changeable, after
selecting the box at their website that says you have read the
restrictions, then it is not their fault you can't make a change or get
a refund.

At this point, I recommend submitting your request in a polite letter,
and not lay the blame with them or tell them how bad the other people
are. You need to be nice, and maybe you will get somewhere. If you don't
get the answer you want, then you are free to sue. It's your right.

I don't think you are going to get any closer to getting what you want
by expanding your audience to this newsgroup, but apparently you were
satisfied with the other online source you asked.



So to sum it up, he bought a non-refundable ticket after declining
advice on the website to contact the airline to check the
restrictions. He also decided not to take out cancellation insurance.
He then cancelled, (for a reason for which cancellation insurance
would have paid out) and didn't like being held to the restrictions he
had agreed to by making the booking. He posts his story here, doesn't
get the sympathy he was hoping for, tries to turn it in to a criticism
of an entire nation (I must remember that one when I next get bad
service from a US company), and cross posts to at least one other
group, hoping to get sympathy there.
--==++AJC++==--
  #16  
Old February 20th, 2006, 12:49 PM posted to rec.travel.air
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Default Air France? Ptui!


mrtravel wrote:
If all were as easily to resolve as you state, why do you think travel
insurance is a big business? Now, you have indicated it was offered to


Because of all its sneering touts here on the Internet trying to
strike fear into the hearts of infrequent travelers?...

--
Charles Packer
mailboxATcpacker.org
http://cpacker.org/whatnews

  #18  
Old October 17th, 2006, 08:33 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,misc.consumers,soc.culture.french,alt.gossip.celebrities
Barry Gold
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Posts: 2
Default Air France? Ptui!

qu'est-ce que c'est wrote:
[snip]
People just don't understand: The French have no concept of "customer
service". They don't know what it is, they don't undersand how it
works, it is totally foreign to their culture.

To the French, the customer is the enemy. French workers HATE their
customers, almost as much as they hate having to show up for work (to
do nothing for 35 hours a week while drawing full benefits and getting
6 weeks mandatory paid vacation per year).

[snip]

I dunno. I've gotten excellent service from:
Hotel concierges
Waiters in good restaurants
Proprietors of fruit stands and delis

I've even gotten good service from taxi drivers, although I've
also gotten such *bad* service that I had to have the concierge
send them away (e.g., arriving 45 min. early for a pre-arranged
appointment and expecting me to pay for waiting time -- I just had

Overall, I've found the French helpful if you will just take the
trouble to learn a few hundred words of French and use them. OTOH, if
you think that they ought to speak English because that is the right
and proper language, you are likely to get what you deserve. (The
bare _attempt_ to stumble through a sentence in French was enough to
get me smiling help -- in English.)

OTOH, when it comes to a "business" that is run by the government,
like Air France, well, you can expect about as much service as you
would from, say, the INS in the US. Or perhaps I should say that you
should expect to get "serviced".
the concierge call me another cab).

--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.
  #19  
Old October 17th, 2006, 08:42 PM posted to rec.travel.air,rec.travel.europe,misc.consumers,soc.culture.french,alt.gossip.celebrities
Phoenix
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Posts: 33
Default Air France? Ptui!

In article , says...
qu'est-ce que c'est wrote:
[snip]


Overall, I've found the French helpful if you will just take the
trouble to learn a few hundred words of French and use them. OTOH, if
you think that they ought to speak English because that is the right
and proper language, you are likely to get what you deserve. (The
bare _attempt_ to stumble through a sentence in French was enough to
get me smiling help -- in English.)



That's true in any foreign country, as far as I've noticed. Learn to
string together a few sentences and people suddenly start to smile and
warmly help you out. I have no idea why France catches hell for it when
the same is true everywhere.

Can you guys imagine a Russian coming to the US and getting bent out of
shape because no one will answer him in his language? A bit psycho, no?
Well, that's how the British and the US tourists act a lot of the time
in foreign countries.

bel



OTOH, when it comes to a "business" that is run by the government,
like Air France, well, you can expect about as much service as you
would from, say, the INS in the US. Or perhaps I should say that you
should expect to get "serviced".
the concierge call me another cab).


  #20  
Old October 17th, 2006, 09:39 PM posted to rec.travel.air
irwell
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Posts: 758
Default Air France? Ptui!

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:42:06 GMT, Phoenix
wrote:


Can you guys imagine a Russian coming to the US and getting bent out of
shape because no one will answer him in his language? A bit psycho, no?
Well, that's how the British and the US tourists act a lot of the time
in foreign countries.

It's also how some French behave in Russia.
Expecting the poor Russian waiter to understand their French.
 




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