The Bahn Card from hell

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

Martin wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 15:09:08 +0200, Tom P wrote:

On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

Pay now and start an action to recover it.

That would be my inclination too, though I do understand that sometimes
this kind of thing is more trouble than its worth.

David

--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
www.davidhorne.net (email address on website)
"[Do you think the world learned anything from the first
world war?] No. They never learn." -Harry Patch (1898-2009)

On 06/09/2012 04:37 PM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 15:09:08 +0200, Tom wrote:

On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

Pay now and start an action to recover it.


Recover what from whom? The problem is that when you study the fine
print on the Bahn Card contract, it says that unless you cancel in
writing 6 weeks before the card runs out, it renews automatically. So
if they send you a new card when the old one runs out, the 6 weeks are
up and you have to pay for it.

I kept a IP that cheated me going for 4 years before I paid for a
service I hadn't received. I didn't pay anymore than the initial
invoice. It must have cost them far more than they collected. I wasn't
surprised that later they almost went bust and that nowadays their
shares are near worthless.

Yes, I've heard these stories too. Did you pay the Inkasso company or
the IP provider? How did you get away with not paying the charges?

On 09/06/2012 15:37, Martin wrote:

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

Pay now and start an action to recover it.

That's the preferred course of action, using the Small Claims Court,
presuming such a thing exists in Germany.

Tom P.:
The problem is that when you study the fine
print on the Bahn Card contract, it says that unless you cancel in
writing 6 weeks before the card runs out, it renews automatically.

Negative-option billing. Illegal in some countries for some
purposes, I believe, but presumably not for this. Now I'm curious
about reasonable notification of the negative option. Is this card
for German residents, tourists, or both? When you buy one, do you
get a copy of the contract to keep, and if so, in what language?
--
Mark Brader | "If you have any problems, any at all, you come see me...
Toronto | although that would be a huge admission of failure on your part."
| --Veronica, "Better Off Ted" (Becky Mann & Audra Sielaff)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Tom P wrote:
On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

I guess I'm too stubborn to pay for something I did not order! Unless
they could produce a written renewal authorization, I don't see how any
legal judgment could be legitimately enforced, so I'd just tell them
to go whistle! Collection agencies will try anything, since they work
on a commission based upon money collected. (One of the reasons I resist
paying for things electronically is that one has no written record of a
canceled check.)

On 06/10/2012 12:02 AM, EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:


Tom P wrote:
On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he
didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no
longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a
letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the
card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up
you can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final
bill could cost you thousands.

I guess I'm too stubborn to pay for something I did not order! Unless
they could produce a written renewal authorization, I don't see how any
legal judgment could be legitimately enforced, so I'd just tell them to
go whistle! Collection agencies will try anything, since they work on a
commission based upon money collected. (One of the reasons I resist
paying for things electronically is that one has no written record of a
canceled check.)

Unfortunately the law does not work that way. When you sign up for a
Bahn card, the contract says that if you do not cancel, then it is
automatically renewed.
What happens then is regulated by statute law for delivery and
payment of goods and services.
The supplier (in this case the Bahn) delivers the new card. Once goods
are delivered it is then the duty of the customer either to pay or to
show that the goods are materially defective. You cannot claim that you
did not want the card, because in that case, you would have canceled it
before the old one ran out.
The same ruling applies to any service that you have contracted on a
regular basis, like a magazine subscription, internet connection, and so
on.

As far as telling debt collectors to go whistle is concerned, that may
be a good idea if you are a lawyer with lots of spare time and money,
but otherwise it can get extremely expensive. After a series of demand
notices, each one with an increased service charge, they will initiate
civil proceedings against you, starting with a court order for payment.

You might be interested in this -
http://www.online-mahnbescheid.de/infos_eng.html

On 06/09/2012 10:01 PM, mikeos wrote:
On 09/06/2012 15:37, Martin wrote:

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

Pay now and start an action to recover it.

That's the preferred course of action, using the Small Claims Court,
presuming such a thing exists in Germany.

Yes but recover what, and what grounds?

Yes granny tell us more about the USA...


"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" a écrit dans le
message de groupe de discussion : ...


Tom P wrote:
On 06/09/2012 09:49 AM, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:10:15 +0200, Tom wrote:

I just thought to mention a salutary tale here. Last year my father
bought a train ticket at a German rail station and the clerk persuaded
him to get a Bahn Card as well. So far so good. A year later a new Bahn
card arrived in the post with a letter thanking him for renewing the
card together with a bill for the renewal. (40 Euros IIRC). As he
didn't
want one any more, he sent it back with a letter saying he was no
longer
interested. The following week, a replacement card arrived with a
letter
acknowledging the cancellation for 2013, and a final demand for the
card
for 2012. He sent this back as well. Two weeks later yet another
replacement card arrived, along with a bill from a debt collection
agency with a demand for 88 Euros.

Do let us know the final outcome.

I tried to use the www.bahn.de to plan a journey across Europe. In
the days when it was www.dbahn.de the website covered the whole of
Europe, from for example Mallaig to Vladivostok. Nowadays it is
limited to a few countries.

He's been convinced to pay the bill and cut his losses. The debt
collectors will pursue you to the gates of hell, if you don't pay up you
can reckon with court orders, writs and bailiffs, and the final bill
could cost you thousands.

I guess I'm too stubborn to pay for something I did not order! Unless
they could produce a written renewal authorization, I don't see how any
legal judgment could be legitimately enforced, so I'd just tell them to go
whistle! Collection agencies will try anything, since they work on a
commission based upon money collected. (One of the reasons I resist paying
for things electronically is that one has no written record of a canceled
check.)