NY critic says Spain overtakes France for cuisine

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Charles Gifford

Flour tortillas were and are very common in Sonora, Mexico from early in
the
Spanish occupation. In the U.S., they are popular in California more so
than
in Texas. They arrived in California during the California Rancho Period
and
have remained popular along with corn tortillas in the modern Cal-Mex
cuisine. Flour tortilla tradition was reinforced in California and
Arizona
by Mexican field workers for 2 reasons: many of the early field workers
came
from Sonora and flour tortilla ingredients were easier and cheaper to get
than corn ingredients.

Charlie, my point was that in Spanish cooking a tortilla is an
egg and potato dish! (one that name its name to the Mexican semi
lookalike)

Yes. But I was replying to Mike Torbre's statement: "More like Tex-Mex". I
left your bit in for context. Obviously I was not clear.

There is also a tortalitta, which is flour, but my
efforts to promote that as the missing link fell on stony ground
:-)

If we were to follow this link we might find that the tortalitta is
ultimately Sumarian. ;-)

Charlie
--
Mike Reid

Following up to Charles Gifford

Yes. But I was replying to Mike Torbre's statement: "More like Tex-Mex". I
left your bit in for context. Obviously I was not clear.

Ah, sorry! Still the repetition may get it through to those who
think Spanish=Mexican

There is also a tortalitta, which is flour, but my
efforts to promote that as the missing link fell on stony ground
:-)

If we were to follow this link we might find that the tortalitta is
ultimately Sumarian. ;-)

Sumarian! now your talking :-)
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Charles Gifford

Yes. But I was replying to Mike Torbre's statement: "More like Tex-Mex".
I
left your bit in for context. Obviously I was not clear.

Ah, sorry! Still the repetition may get it through to those who
think Spanish=Mexican

True. I also replied as I did because I get quite irritated by the idea that
there is Mexican and Tex-Mex only. Cal-Mex is also a separate cuisine that
is not to be dismissed.

There is also a tortalitta, which is flour, but my
efforts to promote that as the missing link fell on stony ground
:-)

If we were to follow this link we might find that the tortalitta is
ultimately Sumarian. ;-)

Sumarian! now your talking :-)

You betcha!
Charlie
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Charles Gifford

Ah, sorry! Still the repetition may get it through to those who
think Spanish=Mexican

True. I also replied as I did because I get quite irritated by the idea that
there is Mexican and Tex-Mex only. Cal-Mex is also a separate cuisine that
is not to be dismissed.

At distance in Europe these subtleties are difficult. There arent
many Mexicans and not that many restaurants. I have difficulty to
differentiate "central america" let alone cal-mex! :-)
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
UK walking "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Spain,cuisines and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:23:30 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
wrote:


"The Reid" wrote in message
.. .
Following up to Charles Gifford

Yes. But I was replying to Mike Torbre's statement: "More like Tex-Mex".
I
left your bit in for context. Obviously I was not clear.

Ah, sorry! Still the repetition may get it through to those who
think Spanish=Mexican

True. I also replied as I did because I get quite irritated by the idea that
there is Mexican and Tex-Mex only. Cal-Mex is also a separate cuisine that
is not to be dismissed.

OK, what is Cal-Mex cuisine and how does it differ from Tex-Mex?

......Alan.


Post no bills

(A.T. Hagan) vented spleen or mostly mumbled...



OK, what is Cal-Mex cuisine and how does it differ from Tex-Mex?



.....although no longer true, in the halcyon days of my youth (more than a
half century ago, in the 40s & 50s), Texans traveling to California noted
several distinct differences....

In California cooks used oregano, ripe olives and sour cream in Mexican
food (and even, sometimes, cooked tomatoes.

Monterrey jack instead of "yeller" cheese

Burritos were a mostly California thing before 1970 or so (and not to be
found South of the Rio Bravo/Gadsen Purchese/Tijuana Ditch).

In California, you drank Tecate from a steel can (with lime to cut the
rust) instead of real beer, Carta Blanca, Bohemia, Dos Equis, Superior, or
best of all "Negra Modelo". Corona wasa cheap Mexican "nearly generic" not
sold in the US and certainlyu not drunk with lime. It was big in Border
town whorehouses (in little bottles, "Coronitas" and on the cheap mexican
airline which served box lunches and left the cockpit door open on its
Convairs, DC-3s and DC-4s)

Those Califorenos would put all sorts of **** in the sopa seca (AKA
"Spanish Rice").

The best thing was passing through New Mexico going and coming where there
was a whole other "style" of New Mexican cooking, different enough to be
noticeable much hotter than Mexican food, either TexMex or CalMex, but very
limited in selection and ingredients.

TMO

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:29:58 -0500, TMOliver
wrote:

(A.T. Hagan) vented spleen or mostly mumbled...

OK, what is Cal-Mex cuisine and how does it differ from Tex-Mex?

....although no longer true, in the halcyon days of my youth (more than a
half century ago, in the 40s & 50s), Texans traveling to California noted
several distinct differences....

In California cooks used oregano, ripe olives and sour cream in Mexican
food (and even, sometimes, cooked tomatoes.

Monterrey jack instead of "yeller" cheese

Burritos were a mostly California thing before 1970 or so (and not to be
found South of the Rio Bravo/Gadsen Purchese/Tijuana Ditch).

In California, you drank Tecate from a steel can (with lime to cut the
rust) instead of real beer, Carta Blanca, Bohemia, Dos Equis, Superior, or
best of all "Negra Modelo". Corona wasa cheap Mexican "nearly generic" not
sold in the US and certainlyu not drunk with lime. It was big in Border
town whorehouses (in little bottles, "Coronitas" and on the cheap mexican
airline which served box lunches and left the cockpit door open on its
Convairs, DC-3s and DC-4s)

Those Califorenos would put all sorts of **** in the sopa seca (AKA
"Spanish Rice").

The best thing was passing through New Mexico going and coming where there
was a whole other "style" of New Mexican cooking, different enough to be
noticeable much hotter than Mexican food, either TexMex or CalMex, but very
limited in selection and ingredients.

TMO

Hmm, OK. Learn something new everyday. Here in Florida it would seem
we've gotten a fusion of the two with the occasional Cuban influence.
New Mexican sounds nice too, but I long ago decided that jalapenos
were as bad as I got so perhaps I wouldn't be able to fully appreciate
it.

......Alan.


Post no bills

There is a noticeable difference in hotness and preparation style even
between northern New Mexico and southern. In the southern area, hotness
is the key, take a tortilla, some Barker or Sandia chili's, some yellow
cheese, that's all you need..... When I first came here several of the
little local cafe's had Spanish in the name, and a couple of the
proprietor's were just a generation or two from the old country
(Spain). But they quickly learned how to use chili's it seems as their
food was as hot as any. In fact I think one of the 'Road Food' series
of books referred to the salsa at one our local places as 'shear fire'.

TMOliver wrote:



The best thing was passing through New Mexico going and coming where there
was a whole other "style" of New Mexican cooking, different enough to be
noticeable much hotter than Mexican food, either TexMex or CalMex, but very
limited in selection and ingredients.

TMO

-

"A.T. Hagan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:23:30 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
wrote:


"The Reid" wrote in message
.. .
Following up to Charles Gifford

Yes. But I was replying to Mike Torbre's statement: "More like
Tex-Mex".
I
left your bit in for context. Obviously I was not clear.

Ah, sorry! Still the repetition may get it through to those who
think Spanish=Mexican

True. I also replied as I did because I get quite irritated by the idea
that
there is Mexican and Tex-Mex only. Cal-Mex is also a separate cuisine
that
is not to be dismissed.

OK, what is Cal-Mex cuisine and how does it differ from Tex-Mex?

.....Alan.

This is very difficult to put down as a perfect description. It has been
gone over here and in a.f.m-c. many times and the results have never been
completely successful. They are very similar, especially at this time of
history. There are differences though - most of which need to be
experienced. sigh Cal-Mex relies more on beef, cheese, flour, eggs, and
chicken than Tex-Mex. It uses less chilies and Mexican sausage. Menudo is
just as popular here as anywhere. These statements are gross
simplifications. Mexican style cooking was introduced rather late in
California's history.

California's cuisine was most heavily influenced by Spanish cooking until
rather recently. California had no large indigenous cultures when the
Spanish arrived. The first (non-indigenous) settlers of California were
Spanish. Russians had a later presence in Northern California but left
little in the way of a contribution to it's cuisine. The same is true of the
much later French Imperial period. As the Spanish presence grew into the
"Rancho" period, Spanish cooking was firmly established and developed into
"Ranchero Cooking". The food was very Spanish in availability and use.
Wheat, wine grapes, beef, sheep, potatoes and other common Spanish
vegetables were the center of agriculture. What we would describe as
"Mexican" did not make much of an inroad into California cuisine until much
later. Many old California families remain Spanish and not Mexican. Mexican
ownership of California was of very short duration actually. San Diego was
founded in 1669 and was Spanish until 1821. California became part of the
U.S. not too much after that. Southern California had more Mexican influence
than the upper part of the state. From Santa Barbara north, the Spanish
families were the dominant culture until the mass immigration of other
Europeans from the U.S.

None of this is to mean that Mexican foods were unknown in California.
Tortillas, chilies, etc. were known and eaten along with the more dominant
Spanish foods. This also explains why the name "Spanish" used incorrectly in
restaurant names and such dishes as Spanish rice were common. The over 200
year domination of Spanish cooking (as it was known in Spain 200 years ago!)
has a continuing effect on California Cuisine and it's concept of what
Mexican Food is.

Sorry if this is not satisfactory and/or unclear, but I did it off-the-cuff.
It may help.

Charlie

randee vented spleen or mostly mumbled...

There is a noticeable difference in hotness and preparation style even
between northern New Mexico and southern. In the southern area,
hotness is the key, take a tortilla, some Barker or Sandia chili's,
some yellow cheese, that's all you need..... When I first came here
several of the little local cafe's had Spanish in the name, and a
couple of the proprietor's were just a generation or two from the old
country (Spain). But they quickly learned how to use chili's it
seems as their food was as hot as any. In fact I think one of the
'Road Food' series of books referred to the salsa at one our local
places as 'shear fire'.


I doubt your restaurateur was that soon from Spain....Since the New
Mexicans spent only a brief quarter century - 1821 until Doniphan's
Missourans rode into town - being "Mexican" in an independent Mexico, many
of the older families, especially in the North, take no little pride in
their "Spanishness" and "Spanish" culture. The handful of families who
survived the Pueblo revolt, the Jornada del Muerto and the return may even
be more "connected" with their Spanish forebearers.

There are even a few folks who can almost claim to be gachupines, absent
any visible "taint" of native American admixture, just as in Mexico where
even today "dark complexion" alliances remain discouraged in some quarters,
remains of the traditional caste system survive, although political parties
since Juarez have always attempted to insure that their front ranks and
candidates reflected a healthy dose of Indio.

TMO