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#41
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Amen really.
Thing is though, it's a positive for the region that they never felt that such facilities were needed in the first place. My line of thinking runs that you only need such facilities - such as in inner city areas where crime is a problem. Bit of an over generalization I know but it's the point. Now I'm only speaking about Thailand here. My experience as a tourist has been pretty positive. This is really an act of God - in my current line of work, you learn that there's nothing you can do in these instances. All you can do is damage minimisation really. Regards, Ka. "Yamamoto" wrote in message ... "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message ... | GIven the lack of medical facilities in those regions, I hate to say it but | it might skyrocket. I didn't want to use the harsh words you use in your reply, but it's the truth. They are simple not equipped to handle such a disaster. Sunday morning, when the first casualties started to be braught into the hospital in Phuket, there was only 1 physician available who was able to cope with such casualties according to posts in other NG's. On the other hand, given the amount of people being wounded or dead and the equiment they have to handle such disasters, I must say that they have done a great job. Regards, Carlos | I'm hoping MSF turns up there soon - their needed in that region more then | anywhere else now. | | Regards, | | Ka. | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | ... | "JosephP" wrote in message | . .. | | Reading the news headlines the tragedy gets worse and worse as the | numbers | | go from 4000, 8000 ... 15000 and rising, mostly in Indonesia, India, and | Sri | | Lanka | | The latest count at CNN at midnight today is more than 22000 people dead. | But that amount is still going up. | And how many people will die in the following days due to their injuries? | | Regards, | | Carlos | | | | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | ... | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | news | | | | Joseph, | | | | I don't take any sides on the fact that a warning system could have | saved | | (many) lives or not, but I want simply to add some points ino this | | discussion. | | | | 1. Many people have died on the roads in Phuket after the first tidal | wave | | when they tried to escape to higher places. Giving a warning that a | | dangerous situation is going to happen without the proper coordination | can | | cause more harm that good. | | | | 2. I was barely a month ago in Phuket, Phi-Phi Island's and Krabi. | | Nobody can protect himself for a tidal wave like the one occured | | yesterday, with waves reaching 5 meter in height and a tremendeous | force | | as | | I have watched today in the news. | | | | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a few | | miles | | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher | places. | | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to protect | | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat or | | tuk-tuk | | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to protect | them | | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea was | | taking | | their children out of their arms. | | | | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short to | start | | evacuate all this humans. | | | | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without setting-up | at | | the | | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting the | | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". | | | | My deepest sincere feelings goes in the first place to all the people | who | | lost his live in this disaster and the people who lost their only | meaning | | if | | life. | | | | Regards, | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
#42
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According to latest Reports about 10,000 people in alone have died in
ANDAMAN NICOBAR ISLANDS(INDIA) that's total 1/3 of all poplulation of 30,000. The Govt is not disclosing the information till time all missings are confirmed after 48 hours. This is as told to NDTV corospondant by Local people who have survided. |
#43
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According to latest Reports about 10,000 people in alone have died in
ANDAMAN NICOBAR ISLANDS(INDIA) that's total 1/3 of all poplulation of 30,000. The Govt is not disclosing the information till time all missings are confirmed after 48 hours. This is as told to NDTV corospondant by Local people who have survided. |
#44
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In article a9b30fc37cf647282fc65651853c1c30
@localhost.talkabouttravelling.com, bobbychayal says... According to latest Reports about 10,000 people in alone have died in ANDAMAN NICOBAR ISLANDS(INDIA) that's total 1/3 of all poplulation of 30,000. The Govt is not disclosing the information till time all missings are confirmed after 48 hours. This is as told to NDTV corospondant by Local people who have survided. The latest estimates now are at 40000. -- Alfred Molon http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria, Prague, Budapest and Portugal |
#45
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In article , Yamamoto says...
For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a few miles of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher places. Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to protect themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat or tuk-tuk as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to protect them from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea was taking their children out of their arms. The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short to start evacuate all this humans. Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without setting-up at the same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting the chickens in a fox hole to shelter". No need to set up shelters on Koh Phi Phi. The island has two hills at least a couple of hundred metres high: http://www.molon.de/galleries/Thaila.../img.php?pic=5 It is possible to walk onto these peaks (there is a path), so the people on Koh Phi Phi could have simply walked onto these places. The waves were max. 8 or 10 metres high, so staying at an altitude of just 30 metres would have sufficed. An early warning would have been very effective. The same holds for most other spots on southern Thailands west coast, where higher elevation points are available almost everywhere. -- Alfred Molon http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria, Prague, Budapest and Portugal |
#46
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"Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message
... | Amen really. | | Thing is though, it's a positive for the region that they never felt that | such facilities were needed in the first place. They have considered to put such facilties up, and have joined the warning system in the Atlantic Ocean. But as the chance of being hit by a disaster like this was almost none, no warning system was setup for the coastline that has been hit now.. Even when such a disaster would happpen, a warnng system would have been of no help as the time between the eartquake and the tidal waves was too short for any organised help ( 1 hour before the waves hit Thailand) | My line of thinking runs that you only need such facilities - such as in | inner city areas where crime is a problem. Bit of an over generalization I | know but it's the point. Governments can only spend as much money as they have in their budget. The departments have to consider what the priorites are and on what they will spend the budget. Spending the biggest part of the budget in setting up a warning system and an evacuation plan in the event of a Tsunami which happens once every 100 years, and let the people die of hunger seems not to be a good decision IMHO. But your way of thinking is not wring at all. | Now I'm only speaking about Thailand here. My experience as a tourist has | been pretty positive. I stay now for 4 years already in Thailand, and my experience is also for 95% positive. Sure, I would like to have bigger walking streets, more respect for the "weak user of the road", less polluting cars and motorcycles, and so on. But there are othere more important things which made me decide to stay in Thailand. | This is really an act of God - It sure was an act of something that was higher than any human. | in my current line of work, you learn that | there's nothing you can do in these instances. For India and Sri Lanka there could maybe had done a little bit to more save some lives. But this is only talking about things that already have been happened. No way to turn the clock back. | All you can do is damage | minimisation really. The damage is already been done by forces of nature. All that humans can do now, is relief the survivors from their grief and put measures in action to prevent this from happening in the future. I am confident that everything possible will be done. Regards, Carlos | Regards, | | Ka. | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | ... | "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message | ... | | GIven the lack of medical facilities in those regions, I hate to say it | but | | it might skyrocket. | | I didn't want to use the harsh words you use in your reply, but it's the | truth. | | They are simple not equipped to handle such a disaster. | | Sunday morning, when the first casualties started to be braught into the | hospital in Phuket, there was only 1 physician available who was able to | cope with such casualties according to posts in other NG's. | | On the other hand, given the amount of people being wounded or dead and | the | equiment | they have to handle such disasters, I must say that they have done a great | job. | | Regards, | | Carlos | | | | I'm hoping MSF turns up there soon - their needed in that region more | then | | anywhere else now. | | | | Regards, | | | | Ka. | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | ... | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | . .. | | | Reading the news headlines the tragedy gets worse and worse as the | | numbers | | | go from 4000, 8000 ... 15000 and rising, mostly in Indonesia, India, | and | | Sri | | | Lanka | | | | The latest count at CNN at midnight today is more than 22000 people | dead. | | But that amount is still going up. | | And how many people will die in the following days due to their | injuries? | | | | Regards, | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | | ... | | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | | news | | | | | | Joseph, | | | | | | I don't take any sides on the fact that a warning system could | have | | saved | | | (many) lives or not, but I want simply to add some points ino this | | | discussion. | | | | | | 1. Many people have died on the roads in Phuket after the first | tidal | | wave | | | when they tried to escape to higher places. Giving a warning that | a | | | dangerous situation is going to happen without the proper | coordination | | can | | | cause more harm that good. | | | | | | 2. I was barely a month ago in Phuket, Phi-Phi Island's and Krabi. | | | Nobody can protect himself for a tidal wave like the one | occured | | | yesterday, with waves reaching 5 meter in height and a tremendeous | | force | | | as | | | I have watched today in the news. | | | | | | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a | few | | | miles | | | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher | | places. | | | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to | protect | | | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat | or | | | tuk-tuk | | | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to | protect | | them | | | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea | was | | | taking | | | their children out of their arms. | | | | | | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short | to | | start | | | evacuate all this humans. | | | | | | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without | setting-up | | at | | | the | | | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting | the | | | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". | | | | | | My deepest sincere feelings goes in the first place to all the | people | | who | | | lost his live in this disaster and the people who lost their only | | meaning | | | if | | | life. | | | | | | Regards, | | | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
#47
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"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
... | In article , Yamamoto says... | | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a few miles | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher places. | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to protect | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat or tuk-tuk | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to protect them | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea was taking | their children out of their arms. | | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short to start | evacuate all this humans. | | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without setting-up at the | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting the | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". | | No need to set up shelters on Koh Phi Phi. The island has two hills at | least a couple of hundred metres high: | http://www.molon.de/galleries/Thaila.../img.php?pic=5 True, walking up 2 hills would have been a solution. (Read further) | It is possible to walk onto these peaks (there is a path), so the people | on Koh Phi Phi could have simply walked onto these places. Many of the tourist were older people who barely can walk a few meters uphill. Many of the tourist were people with babies and children who had to walk with them up the hills. (read further) | The waves | were max. 8 or 10 metres high, so staying at an altitude of just 30 | metres would have sufficed. At the moment that this was going to happen, how could you say if 30 metres was enough? You know that the waves were 8 or 10 metres high AFTER they hit the island. You starting to feel any wet? Keep climing the mountain. | An early warning would have been very | effective. As Tchiowa has explained in another topic, the time between the detection of the eartquake and a possible Tsunami , and the moment a warning is released, is between 2 to 4 hours. Thailand has been hit by the killer waves only 1 hour after the Tsunami. An early warning system would have been of benefit at all for Thailand and Sumatra. | The same holds for most other spots on southern Thailands west coast, | where higher elevation points are available almost everywhere. The same holds for all the other spots in Thailand. The time between the detection of the earthquake and the forming of the killer waves in Thailand was too short for any warning system. It is easy to give advices what had to be done to minimalize the casualties AFTER the disaster. What would your comment have be if Thailand had started an evacuation (with the looting of many propierties for sure), alerted everybody for the killer waves, caussing many dead people in road accidents, and the tidal waves would have been only a few inches after all? There are always some people who will condemn the governments of not having done enough to prevent a disaster when it happens. And these people will start to throw all kinds of things into the discusion in the aftermath. But it is the same people who would be the first one to condemn the goverments if they would done something to prevent such a disaster causing a lot of death and looting, and the disaster would have been a lot less severe or even absent. Thailand has done a great job and is still doing a great job given the size of this disaster. Regards, Carlos | -- | | Alfred Molon | | http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei, | Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria, | Prague, Budapest and Portugal |
#48
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In article , Yamamoto
wrote: € "Alfred Molon" wrote in message € ... € | In article , Yamamoto says... € | € | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a few € miles € | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher places. € | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to protect € | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat or € tuk-tuk € | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to protect them € | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea was € taking € | their children out of their arms. € | € | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short to € start € | evacuate all this humans. € | € | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without setting-up at € the € | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting the € | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". € | € | No need to set up shelters on Koh Phi Phi. The island has two hills at € | least a couple of hundred metres high: € | http://www.molon.de/galleries/Thaila.../img.php?pic=5 € € True, walking up 2 hills would have been a solution. € (Read further) € € | It is possible to walk onto these peaks (there is a path), so the people € | on Koh Phi Phi could have simply walked onto these places. € € Many of the tourist were older people who barely can walk a few meters € uphill. I've been to Phi Phi a couple of times. At 41, I was one of the older tourists. |
#49
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Amen to that.
Ka. "Yamamoto" wrote in message ... "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message ... | Amen really. | | Thing is though, it's a positive for the region that they never felt that | such facilities were needed in the first place. They have considered to put such facilties up, and have joined the warning system in the Atlantic Ocean. But as the chance of being hit by a disaster like this was almost none, no warning system was setup for the coastline that has been hit now.. Even when such a disaster would happpen, a warnng system would have been of no help as the time between the eartquake and the tidal waves was too short for any organised help ( 1 hour before the waves hit Thailand) | My line of thinking runs that you only need such facilities - such as in | inner city areas where crime is a problem. Bit of an over generalization I | know but it's the point. Governments can only spend as much money as they have in their budget. The departments have to consider what the priorites are and on what they will spend the budget. Spending the biggest part of the budget in setting up a warning system and an evacuation plan in the event of a Tsunami which happens once every 100 years, and let the people die of hunger seems not to be a good decision IMHO. But your way of thinking is not wring at all. | Now I'm only speaking about Thailand here. My experience as a tourist has | been pretty positive. I stay now for 4 years already in Thailand, and my experience is also for 95% positive. Sure, I would like to have bigger walking streets, more respect for the "weak user of the road", less polluting cars and motorcycles, and so on. But there are othere more important things which made me decide to stay in Thailand. | This is really an act of God - It sure was an act of something that was higher than any human. | in my current line of work, you learn that | there's nothing you can do in these instances. For India and Sri Lanka there could maybe had done a little bit to more save some lives. But this is only talking about things that already have been happened. No way to turn the clock back. | All you can do is damage | minimisation really. The damage is already been done by forces of nature. All that humans can do now, is relief the survivors from their grief and put measures in action to prevent this from happening in the future. I am confident that everything possible will be done. Regards, Carlos | Regards, | | Ka. | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | ... | "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message | ... | | GIven the lack of medical facilities in those regions, I hate to say it | but | | it might skyrocket. | | I didn't want to use the harsh words you use in your reply, but it's the | truth. | | They are simple not equipped to handle such a disaster. | | Sunday morning, when the first casualties started to be braught into the | hospital in Phuket, there was only 1 physician available who was able to | cope with such casualties according to posts in other NG's. | | On the other hand, given the amount of people being wounded or dead and | the | equiment | they have to handle such disasters, I must say that they have done a great | job. | | Regards, | | Carlos | | | | I'm hoping MSF turns up there soon - their needed in that region more | then | | anywhere else now. | | | | Regards, | | | | Ka. | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | ... | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | . .. | | | Reading the news headlines the tragedy gets worse and worse as the | | numbers | | | go from 4000, 8000 ... 15000 and rising, mostly in Indonesia, India, | and | | Sri | | | Lanka | | | | The latest count at CNN at midnight today is more than 22000 people | dead. | | But that amount is still going up. | | And how many people will die in the following days due to their | injuries? | | | | Regards, | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | | ... | | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | | news | | | | | | Joseph, | | | | | | I don't take any sides on the fact that a warning system could | have | | saved | | | (many) lives or not, but I want simply to add some points ino this | | | discussion. | | | | | | 1. Many people have died on the roads in Phuket after the first | tidal | | wave | | | when they tried to escape to higher places. Giving a warning that | a | | | dangerous situation is going to happen without the proper | coordination | | can | | | cause more harm that good. | | | | | | 2. I was barely a month ago in Phuket, Phi-Phi Island's and Krabi. | | | Nobody can protect himself for a tidal wave like the one | occured | | | yesterday, with waves reaching 5 meter in height and a tremendeous | | force | | | as | | | I have watched today in the news. | | | | | | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, barely a | few | | | miles | | | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the higher | | places. | | | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to | protect | | | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their boat | or | | | tuk-tuk | | | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to | protect | | them | | | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the sea | was | | | taking | | | their children out of their arms. | | | | | | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too short | to | | start | | | evacuate all this humans. | | | | | | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without | setting-up | | at | | | the | | | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like "putting | the | | | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". | | | | | | My deepest sincere feelings goes in the first place to all the | people | | who | | | lost his live in this disaster and the people who lost their only | | meaning | | | if | | | life. | | | | | | Regards, | | | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
#50
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"Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message
u... | Amen to that. | | Ka. God bless you, and my your new-year be a better one as the one of the victims of this disaster. Happy New year, Regards, Carlos | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | ... | "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message | ... | | Amen really. | | | | Thing is though, it's a positive for the region that they never felt | that | | such facilities were needed in the first place. | | They have considered to put such facilties up, and have joined the warning | system in the Atlantic Ocean. | But as the chance of being hit by a disaster like this was almost none, no | warning system was setup for the coastline that has been hit now.. | Even when such a disaster would happpen, a warnng system would have been | of | no help as the time between the eartquake and the tidal waves was too | short | for any organised help ( 1 hour before the waves hit Thailand) | | | My line of thinking runs that you only need such facilities - such as in | | inner city areas where crime is a problem. Bit of an over generalization | I | | know but it's the point. | | Governments can only spend as much money as they have in their budget. | The departments have to consider what the priorites are and on what they | will spend the budget. | Spending the biggest part of the budget in setting up a warning system and | an evacuation plan in the event of a Tsunami which happens once every 100 | years, and let the people die of hunger seems not to be a good decision | IMHO. | But your way of thinking is not wring at all. | | | Now I'm only speaking about Thailand here. My experience as a tourist | has | | been pretty positive. | | I stay now for 4 years already in Thailand, and my experience is also for | 95% positive. | Sure, I would like to have bigger walking streets, more respect for the | "weak user of the road", less polluting cars and motorcycles, and so on. | But there are othere more important things which made me decide to stay in | Thailand. | | | This is really an act of God - | | It sure was an act of something that was higher than any human. | | | in my current line of work, you learn that | | there's nothing you can do in these instances. | | For India and Sri Lanka there could maybe had done a little bit to more | save | some lives. | But this is only talking about things that already have been happened. | No way to turn the clock back. | | | All you can do is damage | | minimisation really. | | The damage is already been done by forces of nature. | All that humans can do now, is relief the survivors from their grief and | put | measures in action to prevent this from happening in the future. | I am confident that everything possible will be done. | | Regards, | | Carlos | | | Regards, | | | | Ka. | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | ... | | "Ka Khiong Kwok" wrote in message | | ... | | | GIven the lack of medical facilities in those regions, I hate to say | it | | but | | | it might skyrocket. | | | | I didn't want to use the harsh words you use in your reply, but it's | the | | truth. | | | | They are simple not equipped to handle such a disaster. | | | | Sunday morning, when the first casualties started to be braught into | the | | hospital in Phuket, there was only 1 physician available who was able | to | | cope with such casualties according to posts in other NG's. | | | | On the other hand, given the amount of people being wounded or dead | and | | the | | equiment | | they have to handle such disasters, I must say that they have done a | great | | job. | | | | Regards, | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | I'm hoping MSF turns up there soon - their needed in that region | more | | then | | | anywhere else now. | | | | | | Regards, | | | | | | Ka. | | | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | | ... | | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | | . .. | | | | Reading the news headlines the tragedy gets worse and worse as | the | | | numbers | | | | go from 4000, 8000 ... 15000 and rising, mostly in Indonesia, | India, | | and | | | Sri | | | | Lanka | | | | | | The latest count at CNN at midnight today is more than 22000 | people | | dead. | | | But that amount is still going up. | | | And how many people will die in the following days due to their | | injuries? | | | | | | Regards, | | | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | "Yamamoto" wrote in message | | | | ... | | | | "JosephP" wrote in message | | | | news | | | | | | | | Joseph, | | | | | | | | I don't take any sides on the fact that a warning system could | | have | | | saved | | | | (many) lives or not, but I want simply to add some points ino | this | | | | discussion. | | | | | | | | 1. Many people have died on the roads in Phuket after the | first | | tidal | | | wave | | | | when they tried to escape to higher places. Giving a warning | that | | a | | | | dangerous situation is going to happen without the proper | | coordination | | | can | | | | cause more harm that good. | | | | | | | | 2. I was barely a month ago in Phuket, Phi-Phi Island's and | Krabi. | | | | Nobody can protect himself for a tidal wave like the one | | occured | | | | yesterday, with waves reaching 5 meter in height and a | tremendeous | | | force | | | | as | | | | I have watched today in the news. | | | | | | | | For instance, take the case of Phi-Phi Island. An island, | barely | a | | few | | | | miles | | | | of superficy, and almost flat with almost no roads to the | higher | | | places. | | | | Only if people had a shelter to hide into, they were able to | | protect | | | | themselves from the disaster. But most people sleep in their | boat | | or | | | | tuk-tuk | | | | as they cannot afford more, and Thailand has no shelters to | | protect | | | them | | | | from such disasters. In Thaivisa.com people describes how the | sea | | was | | | | taking | | | | their children out of their arms. | | | | | | | | The time between the Earthquake and the tidal moves was too | short | | to | | | start | | | | evacuate all this humans. | | | | | | | | Putting-up a system to prevent from such disasters without | | setting-up | | | at | | | | the | | | | same time shelters and other protection systems, is like | "putting | | the | | | | chickens in a fox hole to shelter". | | | | | | | | My deepest sincere feelings goes in the first place to all the | | people | | | who | | | | lost his live in this disaster and the people who lost their | only | | | meaning | | | | if | | | | life. | | | | | | | | Regards, | | | | | | | | Carlos | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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