abolishing tipping?

(tina lekas miller) wrote in message . com...
hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

15% of their salary may not equal the 15% of their tabs for
the evening. In some places, you might have to jack up their
salaries by whole integer multiples to achieve the same thing.
(Hint, they are paid by the hour, not the customer).

How could you possibly hope to keep the rate of their wage in
line with the overall increase in prices of the products they
are selling? Prices would rise, their salaries wouldn't.

With tipping based upon the cost of the products they sell,
their salaries rise as the cost of the products rise (something
many of us can't claim). As they sell more product, their
income also rises. (Something else many of us can't claim).

Most folks I know who either wait tables, or bartend, LIKE
the tipping system because they make a pretty good wage, especially
on an hourly basis. I know a guy who is the head server at the
restaurant. He takes his vacation when business is slow. He
works the busy times and doesn't work the slow times. His salary
is relatively inconsequential to him. It is his tips that are
his income. I'm dubious you could ever ensure that he would be
paid as such by direct salary.

Truth be known, although I understand the problems associated
with it, as a general philosophy, if I were to ban anything,
it would be the hourly wage. Compensation needs to be driven
by "productivity" more than anything else.

I'm with you Tina. Tipping has gotten out of hand. Some bad employees get
a tip when some good employees get a small tip or no tip.
Bill

"tina lekas miller" wrote in message
om...
hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

Nobody tips the lawyer, the graphic designer, the teacher, the
librarian, the grocery store check out clerk, the admin assistant, the
traffic cop, the Walgreens checkout clerk or a million other jobs. Why
this selective situation where we subsidize the paycheck of certain
job categories.

Yes prices will rise. But we are paying it anyway.

please let me know what you think.

thanks
tina

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I'm with you Tina. Tipping has gotten out of hand. Some bad employees
get
a tip when some good employees get a small tip or no tip.

Life is not fair. Tell me something I don't know.


Bill

"tina lekas miller" wrote in message
om...
hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

Nobody tips the lawyer, the graphic designer, the teacher, the
librarian, the grocery store check out clerk, the admin assistant, the
traffic cop, the Walgreens checkout clerk or a million other jobs. Why
this selective situation where we subsidize the paycheck of certain
job categories.

Yes prices will rise. But we are paying it anyway.

please let me know what you think.

thanks
tina

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:51 -0700, "Peter L"
wrote:

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.

To the empoyer as well as the employee; the employer will be
obligated to pay half the social security tax and, I beleive,
more state unemployment tax.

Waiters are, of course, in violation of tax law if they do not
report the entirety of their tips on their tax returns.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Icono Clast wrote:

In another thread, I somewhat answered the question posed. I've had
almost two hours to think about it and, based on what I said in the
other thread, have concluded that the increase in prices wouldn't be
significant.

That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

Something doesn't add up. For one thing, you're assuming the waiter
gets it all. I think most places share the tips with other workers, all
of whom would get an increase. In any case, you can't have the employer
not earning less, the waiter earning more, yet the diner pays only an 8%
premium instead of 15%.

Hatunen wrote:

I generally prefer the European practice myself, but the
probability of getting the American restaurants and waiters to
change is between slim and none so it's mostly ****ing upwind.

I visited a number of totalitarian countries some years ago. Tipping
was forbidden as it was demeaning for people to rely on the simple
generosity of others. Guess what - they couldn't make it stick. Ask
any Canadian (or others) who's been to Cuba.

"Icono Clast" wrote in message
om...
Hatunen wrote in message
. ..
(tina lekas miller) wrote:
what do you think of making employers jack up their employees pay (and
the
cost of their services) by whatever percentage say 15% and forbid
tipping.

They will quickly lose business because their menu prices will be
significantly higher. It also removes my ability to let the
waiter know he's done a poor job by leaving a 5-cent tip.

In another thread, I somewhat answered the question posed. I've had
almost two hours to think about it and, based on what I said in the
other thread, have concluded that the increase in prices wouldn't be
significant. Here's the $15 meal to which I refer'd ($13.90+$1.10 tax
at 8%):

Soup: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Salad: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Entrée: $7.00 an increase from $6.75
Dessert: $1.75 an increase from $1.50
Coffee: $1.15 an increase from $0.95

New amount: $13.90; old amount: $12.70, a net increase of $1.28. Big
deal!

That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

In San Francisco, you can get a rather nice meal for $15. This evening
in North Beach, I paid only $12 including a tip greater than 20% for a
meal that was delicious, nutritious, and more than filling.

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.


__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

"Hans-Christian Grosz" wrote in message
...
me wrote:

on an hourly basis. I know a guy who is the head server at the
restaurant. He takes his vacation when business is slow. He
works the busy times and doesn't work the slow times. His salary
is relatively inconsequential to him. It is his tips that are
his income. I'm dubious you could ever ensure that he would be
paid as such by direct salary.

Why not?

And the other side you didn't mention: He askes from others to take
the jobs when he is away, therefore they have to work in slow hours,
getting less income. Don't forget that point also.


Usually the less experienced takes the worse hours. That's true in just
about any profession (e.g. medical profession).

HC

"Hatunen" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:51 -0700, "Peter L"
wrote:

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if
that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.

To the empoyer as well as the employee; the employer will be
obligated to pay half the social security tax and, I beleive,
more state unemployment tax.

Waiters are, of course, in violation of tax law if they do not
report the entirety of their tips on their tax returns.

It's not news to anyone, but cheating, er, I mean fudging the tax return, is
the most popular national pass time.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"tina lekas miller" wrote in message
om...
hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

Nobody tips the lawyer, the graphic designer, the teacher, the
librarian, the grocery store check out clerk, the admin assistant, the
traffic cop, the Walgreens checkout clerk or a million other jobs. Why
this selective situation where we subsidize the paycheck of certain
job categories.

Yes prices will rise. But we are paying it anyway.

please let me know what you think.

thanks
tina

I think it woiuld be a great idea if lawyers, etc., only got $3.00 per hour
and relied on the quality of their service and the TIPS that they received
for income. The world would be a infinitely more fair place! The fact is
that certain occupations (food service the most common) rely on the quality
of their service to ensure a good income. Subsequently, WE BEBEFIT. Good
service, good tips. Bad service - no tips, change of career. It weeds out
the poor service and ensures (well in a perfect world), that good service
prevails.

It would be WONDERFUL if the income of everyone would directly reflect the
quality of service they provide. Maybe the quality of service in general
would improve.

SD