Scenic areas in England

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave"
said:


I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible
to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.

You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate action
and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different story
and requires a different skill set to be effective.

Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that no one
other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been attack by
knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.


We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.

Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder, is to
negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you is closed.

And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member of
the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He only had
a knife!"

Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about
the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.

Who said anything about the knife being thrown?

We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a knife
would be.


The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.

Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a
gun.



That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with
most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained
at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual
police
officers this is not the case.

For most of them, no...

With good and frequent training yes.

The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.

The Police departments and military should.

Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.


To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.

Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...

You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.

Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.


Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.

I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)


In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic, .40
S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both 00
buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers, which
fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm (308)
rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly qualifying.

In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.

I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and questioned
for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?


I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a concealed
firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual qualification &
re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for concealed
carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this, http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg and
defend myself at home if I have to.

Defending from people dressed in black



A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.

That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.

whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave"
said:


I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible
to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate action
and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different story
and requires a different skill set to be effective.

Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that no one
other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been attack by
knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.


We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.

Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder, is to
negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you is closed.

And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member of
the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He only had
a knife!"

Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about
the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?

We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a knife
would be.


The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.

Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a
gun.



That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with
most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained
at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual
police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.

Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.


To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.

Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.

I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)

In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic, .40
S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both 00
buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers, which
fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm (308)
rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly qualifying.

In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.

I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and questioned
for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?


I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a concealed
firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual qualification &
re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for concealed
carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this, http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg and
defend myself at home if I have to.

Defending from people dressed in black


A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.

That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.


That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. Don't you think. Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. Don't
believe all those cop shows. They don't represent reality very well.

On 2009-05-22 07:43:12 -0700, Ron Hunter said:

whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave" said:


I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate
action and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different
story and requires a different skill set to be effective.

Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that
no one other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been
attack by knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.


We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.

Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder,
is to negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you
is closed.

And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member
of the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He
only had a knife!"

Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?

We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a
knife would be.


The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.

Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a gun.



That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.

Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.


To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.

Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.

I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)

In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic,
.40 S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both
00 buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers,
which fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm
(308) rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly
qualifying.

In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.

I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and
questioned for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?


I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a
concealed firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual
qualification & re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of
that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for
concealed carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this, http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg
and defend myself at home if I have to.

Defending from people dressed in black


A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.

That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.


That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. Don't you think. Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. Don't
believe all those cop shows. They don't represent reality very well.

Agreed.
The movies & TV are not an accurate portrayal of practcal weapons usage
(knife or firearm.)

After over 20 years in Law enforcement, with thousands of rounds fired
on the range to gain good proficiency with a number of weapons, and
many years as a trainer & range master, I have never fired my duty
firearm while performing my duty as a peace officer. I have used my
firearm to provide cover during an arrest and securing a crime scene
many times.
Firearms are a useful tool allowing us to effect safe arrests of armed
felons. The shoot out is not a common thing. The armed criminal is
still, for the most part smart enough to understand the odds of
survival are better in Court and will surrender.

Professional training and dealing with dangerous situations with
authority and confidence, will for the most part resolve 99% without
any shots being fired.
Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

Savageduck wrote:
On 2009-05-22 07:43:12 -0700, Ron Hunter said:

whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave" said:

I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate
action and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different
story and requires a different skill set to be effective.
Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that
no one other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been
attack by knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.


We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.
Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder,
is to negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you
is closed.
And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member
of the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He
only had a knife!"
Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?
We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a
knife would be.


The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.
Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a gun.



That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.
Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.


To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.
Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.
I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)

In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic,
.40 S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both
00 buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers,
which fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm
(308) rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly
qualifying.
In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.
I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and
questioned for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?


I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a
concealed firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual
qualification & re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of
that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for
concealed carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this, http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg
and defend myself at home if I have to.
Defending from people dressed in black


A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.
That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.


That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. Don't you think. Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. Don't
believe all those cop shows. They don't represent reality very well.

Agreed.
The movies & TV are not an accurate portrayal of practcal weapons usage
(knife or firearm.)

After over 20 years in Law enforcement, with thousands of rounds fired
on the range to gain good proficiency with a number of weapons, and
many years as a trainer & range master, I have never fired my duty
firearm while performing my duty as a peace officer. I have used my
firearm to provide cover during an arrest and securing a crime scene
many times.
Firearms are a useful tool allowing us to effect safe arrests of armed
felons. The shoot out is not a common thing. The armed criminal is
still, for the most part smart enough to understand the odds of
survival are better in Court and will surrender.

Professional training and dealing with dangerous situations with
authority and confidence, will for the most part resolve 99% without
any shots being fired.
Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.

Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.

On 2009-05-22 14:20:49 -0700, Ron Hunter said:

Savageduck wrote:
On 2009-05-22 07:43:12 -0700, Ron Hunter said:

whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave" said:

I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate
action and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different
story and requires a different skill set to be effective.
Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that
no one other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been
attack by knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.


We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.
Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder,
is to negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you
is closed.
And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member
of the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He
only had a knife!"
Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?
We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a
knife would be.


The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.
Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a gun.



That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.
Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.


To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.
Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.
I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)

In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic,
.40 S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both
00 buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers,
which fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm
(308) rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly
qualifying.
In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.
I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and
questioned for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?


I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a
concealed firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual
qualification & re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of
that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for
concealed carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this, http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg
and defend myself at home if I have to.
Defending from people dressed in black


A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.
That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.


That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. Don't you think. Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. Don't
believe all those cop shows. They don't represent reality very well.

Agreed.
The movies & TV are not an accurate portrayal of practcal weapons usage
(knife or firearm.)

After over 20 years in Law enforcement, with thousands of rounds fired
on the range to gain good proficiency with a number of weapons, and
many years as a trainer & range master, I have never fired my duty
firearm while performing my duty as a peace officer. I have used my
firearm to provide cover during an arrest and securing a crime scene
many times.
Firearms are a useful tool allowing us to effect safe arrests of armed
felons. The shoot out is not a common thing. The armed criminal is
still, for the most part smart enough to understand the odds of
survival are better in Court and will surrender.

Professional training and dealing with dangerous situations with
authority and confidence, will for the most part resolve 99% without
any shots being fired.
Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.

Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.

Stupid and incompetent is found in all fields.
Sometimes demonstrations of that stupidity & incompetence are graphic,
bizarre, and often entertaining. Sometimes tragic, and not limited to
Law enforcement or dumb criminals, just look to the lack of training
and incompetence which led to the Feb 12 disaster in Buffalo.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6419426.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5010095n
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30724052/

--
Regards,
Savageduck

On May 22, 11:20*pm, Ron Hunter wrote:
Savageduck wrote:
On 2009-05-22 07:43:12 -0700, Ron Hunter said:

whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave" said:

I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.

I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate
action and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different
story and requires a different skill set to be effective.
Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.

Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that
no one other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been
attack by knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.

*We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.
Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives

Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder,
is to negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you
is closed.
And if that knife wielder had a gun ?

Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member
of the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He
only had a knife!"
Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .

Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?
We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a
knife would be.

The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.

Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a *gun wielder *could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.

The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.

Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself..
Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a gun.

That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, *no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.
Yes hopefully, but *that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.

To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, *the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.
Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.
I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)

In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic,
.40 S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both
00 buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers,
which fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm
(308) rifles.

I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly
qualifying.
In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.

There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.
I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)

But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of *some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and
questioned for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?

I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a
concealed firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual
qualification & re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of
that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.

I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for
concealed carry.

Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this,http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg
and defend myself at home if I have to.
Defending from *people dressed in black

A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.
That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.

It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.

That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. *Don't you think. *Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. *It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. *Don't
believe all those cop shows. *They don't represent reality very well..

Agreed.
The movies & TV are not an accurate portrayal of practcal weapons usage
(knife or firearm.)

After over 20 years in Law enforcement, with thousands of rounds fired
on the range to gain good proficiency with a number of weapons, and
many years as a trainer & range master, I have never fired my duty
firearm while performing my duty as a peace officer. I have used my
firearm to provide cover during an arrest and securing a crime scene
many times.
Firearms are a useful tool allowing us to effect safe arrests of armed
felons. The shoot out is not a common thing. The armed criminal is
still, for the most part smart enough to understand the odds of
survival are better in Court and will surrender.

Professional training and dealing with dangerous situations with
authority and confidence, will for the most part resolve 99% without
any shots being fired.
Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.

Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. *Sigh.

a very good demonstration then....and a man who loves his job!

House of Frauds wrote:
On May 22, 11:20 pm, Ron Hunter wrote:
Savageduck wrote:
On 2009-05-22 07:43:12 -0700, Ron Hunter said:
whisky-dave wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200905190910046752-savageduck1REMOVESPAM@mecom...
On 2009-05-19 07:33:11 -0700, "whisky-dave" said:
I donl;t think I can out dodge a bullet.
I know I can;t take films/movies as real life but it does seem possible to
dodge out of the way of someone thrusting a knife towards you,
but it rarly seems possibkle with a gun even at the same distance as
distance increases
it does get easier to move faster than a bullet I guess.
You are correct, that is movie myth, dodging is not the appropriate
action and is not going to help you.
Stopping the threat with your defensive firearm is.
Defense against a knife once engage up close is a totally different
story and requires a different skill set to be effective.
Yep, and I donl;t see how someone with a gun 10ft or 100ft way
can do much about it.
Sure that might fire at the attacker but with you claims of the accuracy
of teh average hand gun in teh average 'joe' doesn;t convinve me that
no one other than
the attacker will get heard.
Perhaps you've have stats on the number of lives saved in this situation.
But the number of situations that I know of where people have been
attack by knives
there's hasn;t been the opportunity to be protected by someone else's gun.
We always consider a knife just as dangerous as a firearm if not more
so.
Is that why the USA llicence guns and not knives
Therefore the procedure in dealing with a noncompliant knife wielder,
is to negate the threat with a firearm before the distance between you
is closed.
And if that knife wielder had a gun ?
Somehow whenever a knife wielder is shot there is some ignorant member
of the press or letter writer who asks, "Why did they shoot him? He
only had a knife!"
Yes that is a little said but then their is appropriate actiojn. What about the
youth that was killed on teh London underground by cops with legal guns
because they thought he had a bomb.
Does that make imaginary weapons more dangerous than real ones .
Well I think I could dodgy a knife thrown from 20 ft but a bullet ????
I wouldn't be so sure.
Who said anything about the knife being thrown?
We are talking about which weapon is the most dangerous.
I think guns are more dangerous in the hands of an attacker than a
knife would be.
The knife wielder can close that gap very quickly and slash or stab.
A gun wielder doesn't have to bother top close the gap.
Throwing a knife is not something a knife fighter would normally do.
Yep his more likely to creep up behind you,
a gun wielder could do the same but wouldn't have to get so close
to threaten your life.
The best way to get away from a kife is to run from it,
you won;t get as far if the person hasd a gun.
Throw the knife and miss, and you have effectively disarmed yourself.
Yes, making a knife safer for the victim.
The knife wielder has to run after you and get within a few feet to
have any effect. It can't be that difficult to hit a running target with a gun.
That would permit a defensive action against an assailant armed with most
fire arms, even fully automatic weapons. Provided training is maintained at
a high level, certainly in some departments and with some individual police
officers this is not the case.
For most of them, no...
With good and frequent training yes.
The problem is in the UK most people dion;t have such training.
The Police departments and military should.
Yes hopefully, but that didnt; help jon demanzes on teh London underground.
To use a firearm there are very noticeable body language signatures,
which warn of the threat.
Yeah, the target enters the cross hairs...
You have quite an imagination which seems to be ignorant of the reality
police (& the military) have to deal with.
Both the police and military seem to prefer guns to knives as their
required item for 'self' defence or the defence of others.
Agreed.
Only a handful of officers I know carry a knife as a backup weapon, but
some do.
I wonder if any carry two like in the movies ;-)
In my career I have used department issued 38 Special, 9mm automatic,
.40 S&W automatic (all S&W), 12 gauge shotgun (Remington 870 with both
00 buckshot or "bean-bag" loads), 40mm & 35mm projectile launchers,
which fire a variety of projectile types, and 5.56mm (.223) & 7.72mm
(308) rifles.
I also have used personal weapons as carry weapons , a Glock Model 23
.40S&W, and most recently a Kimber Custom 45 ACP, we were encouraged to
practice regularly on top of mandatory training and quarterly
qualifying.
In a confrontation would you prefer one of the above or a knife.
There are also other weapons trained & qualified with, such as chemical
agents and a number of different types of baton.
I guess they can only be used for self defence ;-)
But I was in a car in London and the polce stopped and search it and
found a can of some sort of defence gas against attackers.
The three girls in the car wrere taken to the police station and
questioned for 3 hours
Why if it's only for defence purposes ?
I retired in February and as a retired peace officer can carry a
concealed firearm in California, provided I maintain an annual
qualification & re-certification. All the firearms Laws for the use of
that weapon apply.
Makes sense but perhaps peace officers in the USA need to carry
a gun, but I can't understand why you don;t prefer a knife.
I also own a number of target weapons which are not suitable for
concealed carry.
Having said all of that I can do this;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/DSCF0076c3.jpg
with this,http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...er-CDP-LAc.jpg
and defend myself at home if I have to.
Defending from people dressed in black
A firearm seems to me to be the best tool for the job.
That's why some criminals prefer them I guess.
It also seems strange that more police get shot in the USA than the UK,
thankfully it's quite rare in the UK.
That might be due to the fact that the US has about 6 times the
population of the UK. Don't you think. Given that so many of the
criminals in the US are armed, it is rather amazing that more aren't
killed. It is still true that most police officers will never fire
their gun except at the pistol range during a normal career. Don't
believe all those cop shows. They don't represent reality very well.
Agreed.
The movies & TV are not an accurate portrayal of practcal weapons usage
(knife or firearm.)
After over 20 years in Law enforcement, with thousands of rounds fired
on the range to gain good proficiency with a number of weapons, and
many years as a trainer & range master, I have never fired my duty
firearm while performing my duty as a peace officer. I have used my
firearm to provide cover during an arrest and securing a crime scene
many times.
Firearms are a useful tool allowing us to effect safe arrests of armed
felons. The shoot out is not a common thing. The armed criminal is
still, for the most part smart enough to understand the odds of
survival are better in Court and will surrender.
Professional training and dealing with dangerous situations with
authority and confidence, will for the most part resolve 99% without
any shots being fired.
Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.
Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.

a very good demonstration then....and a man who loves his job!

Just proves that one can always serve as a bad example. Grin.

On Sat, 23 May 2009 02:30:56 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.
Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.

a very good demonstration then....and a man who loves his job!

Just proves that one can always serve as a bad example. Grin.

It is not just policemen who are hoisted on their own petard:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479813,00.html


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

tony cooper wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 02:30:56 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training,
unfortunately there are times when the individual officer(s) make
tragic mistakes.
Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.

a very good demonstration then....and a man who loves his job!

Just proves that one can always serve as a bad example. Grin.

It is not just policemen who are hoisted on their own petard:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479813,00.html

I'm sorry, but that article is _funny_. I find myself wondering if they
were using the same fire prevention manual as the Reichstag in 1933.

So much for the myth of German ubercompetence.

tony cooper wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 02:30:56 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Discipline in firearms usage is a vital part of training, unfortunately
there are times when the individual officer(s) make tragic mistakes.
Yes, like a local officer who shot himself in the leg during a gun
safety demonstration. Sigh.
a very good demonstration then....and a man who loves his job!
Just proves that one can always serve as a bad example. Grin.

It is not just policemen who are hoisted on their own petard:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479813,00.html


Perhaps they should forego that second gross glass bier.... Or the
lunch visit to the local inn.